Why I'll wait for the next-gen i3

For a more thorough explanation, read my post in "To REx or not to REx".

I really wanted to lease an i3. I really did.
BMW was nice enough to lend me a REx for 3 days.

Leaving aside the ambivalent dealer experience (which is actually a major deal… but has not much to do with BMW)… I realized that the i3 simply is not where it needs to be for my needs, and I suspect the needs of most drivers in North America.

The REx is not a good option (see above referenced post). It's a massive compromise. It's a HYBRID in the true sense of the word. You are not "Born Electric" when you drive a REx.
You are driving a dual engined, gas tank toting, car which is far less efficient on the highway than a Prius (when running on gas).

If the i3 had about 160 miles of range, I would buy one.

Until then, I'll wait and drive something else.

If you're considering the i3, I would vote with my pocketbook, and wait. That will give BMW the message that they need to do better on range. Tom said it himself - every electric BMW to date has had lower range than its predecessor… isn't that going backwards?

I applaud BMW for building the i3. It's just not-quite-there-yet.

Hi Surge,

well, now I have to open my laptop, teased into counter-reaction…

While I value your opinion, am not blind to i3/Rex’s shortcomings and generally agree that a full electric vehicle with meaningful range is to be preferred, please don’t make us vote with our pocketbook any which way. It’s a free world. i3, with our without REx, will never be the car for all people in its current incarnation as everyone will be aware of by now. One could say that if the Dunlop boot doesn’t fit, don't buy it

One thought of me regarding your comment that a car like the Plug-Prius will be more economical: no. We drive quite a lot, of which ~92 pct electric, meaning a mean fuel consumption of about one litre every 200 kilometers. Even with hauls of up to 320 km (200 miles) a day once every fortnight. This kind of fuel consumption is not practically feasible with a PiP.

Maybe we’re using it differently and surely we’ve got the much more everyday-suitable European REx, but the concept is proving to perform on par with our expectations. I even would like to go so far as to state that without the REx, we wouldn’t be driving on electricity at all, for all full electrics share the same issue at the moment: no insurance against failing charging infrastructure. It has proven unwise to count on 100% availability. It has happened on numerous occasions that charge locations didn’t work, were occupied or simply didn’t/ceased to exist. This will remain a problem for a while, even in the Netherlands, where we are blessed with a comparably excellent E-infrastrucure, until charge points are abundant. Here, the REx will enable me, and more importantly my better half, to get home without ado, and without her needing to wait for help or forced to charge at a dark, remote location, forced to wait in a, for all purposes, immobilised vehicle. Call it insurance....

In the end, I’m, like you are, hoping on and counting on a better i3 (or equivalent) in the future to replace our i3 when the time comes. We’ll be zipping along quite happily in the mean time....

Regards, Steven

PS: in advance, please forgive any offence, for it is absolutely not intended, English is not my native tongue.

The problem with EVs is that, like electronics or computers etc. they are continually improving. So it's always better to wait! Perhaps you can do so but we (both 74 and with cancer) can't.

Horses (or cars) for courses.

Your reasoning behind the wait is perfectly understandable. I was in a similar position last week, hence my to REx or not to REx post. At one point I considered whether “doing nothing” would be the way forward.

Here is another way of looking at it: subsidies for EVs will gradually fade away. In the UK, the exchequer will at some point start charging Road Tax. It’s inevitable. Benefit in Kind Tax is already increasing from next year onwards. A REx currently already attracts 5% BIK tax right now, going up by about 2% every year.

Question is also what fuel duty is going to do (which amounts to about 90% of current fuel prices in the UK). The government might decide to lower it and become more creative with Road Tax for EVs. In other words, there are many moving parts. It won’t get easier to determine whether now is a good time to purchase an EV or not. Is waiting really such a good option?

To me, it was a mixture of the above, but also a desire of to be part of the future (at least how I see it!).

Surge,

Wow I am surprised, after all the discussion and interest you are going to wait? You know waiting is only going to set the stage to wait for another reason after you do wait for whatever current reasons you have. Improvements are always going to be in the pipeline but you and I won't be getting any younger while waiting.

I can't possibly disagree with you more about the Rex, the Rex does an excellent job of what it was intended to do and I for one would not have purchased the i3 without a range extender. I currently have around 600 miles on my Rex and have not needed the Rex even once yet. However no Rex and I would not have the car and would still be using gasoline in my other car.

As for range, despite all the reports on here complaining about range, I am still getting 80 miles showing with a 100% SOC from charging up yesterday with these cooler then normal fall temps we are having. I drive in comfort mode all the time and still am beating the predicted range on the car. I almost never even try ecopro or ecopro +. When I go to the big city I usually stop for a short charge either at my BMW dealer or Sams club while shopping there and pick up 1 hour charge and these have been free to boot. So at the present time I can use the car for 120 plus mile trips without even needing the Rex, but still without it I would not be driving electric since I would not have been comfortable w/o it.

You know the next best thing will always be in the pipeline, the next promise of what will be better as soon as it it released and then we find out the short comings when the product hits the stores or dealerships. This scenario I am sure will repeat itself again and again and again, in the mean time I am driving electric, I don't care what you think or say. I was borne electric on September 4th, and to some degree more electric than someone who bought the BEV only and still has to keep a backup ICE car. With the Rex I go many places I otherwise would not take the car. I am sure you read the posts of several others like Ultraturtle who explained that thought.

Anyway good luck with waiting if that what you want to do. I am sure you have been bitten by the driving electric bug, as it is so much fun, I don't think I could wait after doing a 3 day test drive myself. I also love filling up at home and not needing to fool around at the gas pump getting all smelly from pumping the stuff.

Surge, the car isn't the issue. Most of the people on this forum bought the car because they really like / love the car. It wasn't based on some complicated rationalization of the range of the car, ....

I bought the car cause it is fun. Its a fun car to drive. The car stuff is great: acceleration, handling, really cool interior, technology, carbon fiber body. Its really cheap to fuel, only $50 / month for electric vs $150 - $200 / month for gas. The car gets lots of attention. You end up talking with all sorts of folks about your car. I even get people driving Porsche's taking cell phone pictures of me on the highway.

Nothing in life is perfect, let alone cars. I make the i3 work for me. That's part of the BMW i3 ownership experience. It does 95+ percent of what i need it to do. Sure I wish it could do 100% but this car isn't for "settlers" who need that assurance. Settlers should be looking at the Toyota Camary and Honda Accord. That is the car for people who aren't up for new experiences, who want to settle for something comfortable. I haven't looked but I wouldn't expect to see many passionate drivers talking about their Toyota Camary or Honda Accord. What would they discuss, getting the LX or EX package?

That is the point with this car. It creates passion. If your interested in that, I suggest jumping in with two feet. You may have to adjust some of your longstanding paradigms and stretch your comfort zone. Otherwise enjoy your Accord or Camary and we'll continue to be passionate about our i3. We already understand its limitations, we are "explorers" and "pioneers."

Life is too short to wait till the stars align. Enjoy as much as you can.

BTW.. I have one with the REX and highly recommend that version.

Actually, I think I'll wait for a BMW t3, you know, the teleporter one, at which point I will at long last trade in my one-horsepower horse. I thought of trading up when steam cars came along, but wisely decided to wait, then there was the Model T-for-temptation, but I knew something sexier would be along any day, and sure enough soon there was the phallic E Type chasing those Yankee chrome beauties with fins, but I still couldn't take the plunge, then there was the 40-year drought alleviated by the Insight and the Prius, but they just didn't have the oomph, so I waited, and waited, and waited, and ......

Sorry if this post is a bit tardy but my quill is blunt and the carrier pigeon can't find that internet thingy.

Obviously what works for any individual is a matter only they can decide. The i3 and i3 REx are far from perfect EVs. However I think BMW did a great job and even with their faults (as you mentioned I am disappointed with the range) they are both still excellent cars and after about 12,000 miles I'm still very happy I bought the REx. I've needed about 14 gallons of gas to drive approximately 500 miles with the range extender running. So I'm driving on electric for more than 95% of the time. Having the utility of the REx has made the car so much more versatile. But that's just my thoughts, everybody has different opinions and they are all valid and worth listening to. The only thing I'll add is this well known proverb: Don't let perfect be the enemy of good!

Surge said:

For a more thorough explanation, read my post in "To REx or not to REx".

I really wanted to lease an i3. I really did.
BMW was nice enough to lend me a REx for 3 days.

Leaving aside the ambivalent dealer experience (which is actually a major deal… but has not much to do with BMW)… I realized that the i3 simply is not where it needs to be for my needs, and I suspect the needs of most drivers in North America.

The REx is not a good option (see above referenced post). It's a massive compromise. It's a HYBRID in the true sense of the word. You are not "Born Electric" when you drive a REx.
You are driving a dual engined, gas tank toting, car which is far less efficient on the highway than a Prius (when running on gas).

If the i3 had about 160 miles of range, I would buy one.

Until then, I'll wait and drive something else.

If you're considering the i3, I would vote with my pocketbook, and wait.

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I'm hazy on why you would discourage anyone from buying a car because you decided not to. Just seems like a strange thing to do.

mindmachine said:

Anyway good luck with waiting if that what you want to do. I am sure you have been bitten by the driving electric bug, as it is so much fun, I don't think I could wait after doing a 3 day test drive myself. I also love filling up at home and not needing to fool around at the gas pump getting all smelly from pumping the stuff.

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+1 !!

I have never enjoyed driving a vehicle as much as my little Smart ED over the past year and many thousands of km. Driving electric is so liberating! I'm setting an example for my kids, and I get so much more attention with this car that it makes striking up a conversation to encourage others to test drive an electric car so easy.

Regrets? I have none. Driving a Prius Plug In with ten mile EV range, I was frustrated and wanted more. The BMW i3 came along at the right time for me. Waiting sucks, why wait? While I'm a certified "non impulse" buyer, but, I went from first i3 drive to owner in two weeks. I wanted 100% electric, so I went with the BEV which fits my driving requirements perfectly.

Since I'm a tech junkie, I liked that the i3 was a new model. It will only be followed by other EVs from other manufacturers with greater range and other innovations. Instead of waiting, I jumped in and am thoroughly enjoying my 100% electric mode of high tech transportation. I did hedge my bet on the current i3, by going with a 2.5 year lease. I'm enjoying current EV technology, content, while patiently waiting for the 2017 EV offerings. Why wait, when it isn't necessary.

DAZ said:

Regrets? I have none. Driving a Prius Plug In with ten mile EV range, I was frustrated and wanted more. The BMW i3 came along at the right time for me. Waiting sucks, why wait? While I'm a certified "non impulse" buyer, but, I went from first i3 drive to owner in two weeks. I wanted 100% electric, so I went with the BEV which fits my driving requirements perfectly.

Since I'm a tech junkie, I liked that the i3 was a new model. It will only be followed by other EVs from other manufacturers with greater range and other innovations. Instead of waiting, I jumped in and am thoroughly enjoying my 100% electric mode of high tech transportation. I did hedge my bet on the current i3, by going with a 2.5 year lease. I'm enjoying current EV technology, content, while patiently waiting for the 2017 EV offerings. Why wait, when it isn't necessary.

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Ditto... why wait... If you wait for the next innovation you'like never enjoy the here and now...
Tomorrow never comes...

My BEV is awesome... i look forward to every drive... and I look forward to taking part in the pack of innovation when my lease expires in 2017. Meanwhile I sure am having fun..

I've ordered an i3 depsite the fact Im not sure of the looks and the fact the EV range isnt what I need. My previous contract involved a 150 mile journey twice a week. My new job is a 120 mile round trip commute. Despite the fact that both journeys require a REX, its not an issue... it means Ill use 100% of the battery range, making bigger fuel savings. Im hoping that within 3 years there will be a 50kWh or bigger upgrade pack available from BMW. It means I dont need to buy a whole new car. If they get the pack to 75kWh I'll ask them to remove the REX as I doubt Id ever need it.

I'm sure something better will come along... A telsa Model S is on my shopping list for long distance work, family holidays etc, but I heard from my dealer today that BMW are working on the i5 and i9 as their next i cars! May be rumour, but last time I spoke to him in August he said he didnt know what they'd come up with next apart from soemthing with a carte blanche design.

i9 eh? A Telsa S competitor? Has BMW had a 9er before?

Edit to add... the reason I bought the i3...its the first electric drive car that has a range including the REX that I need, doesn't drive like a blancmange (i test drive a 04 prius and bought an 99 330ci instead) and has enough power to go faster than most people can be bothered to do... whilst stopping be getting banned for driving on motorways as it cant get to 100mph. Plus the interior is a dream. Reminds me of a star trek set. And thats what ill be seeing not the outside... thought screw it. . I've wanted an electric drive car since mid 1990s, but it took too long, cant wait any more. Telsa is too expensive. everything else not enough range with no REX and too heavy. i3 it is then. Ka-ching

PS the 330ci was a mistake, I found that it only goes as fast as everyone else in traffic but uses twice as much fuel. Lovely to drive once the traffic cleared though. All my cars since then had less than 140hp. So the i3 is going to be fun.

Waiting 6 months was long enough thanks, now done over 3000 miles in less than two months, very happy with my pet REX, so nice to drive.

This is an interesting discussion. I just bought a REx 10/24 and I love it. I'm not following the range issues. I'm right in EPA range. My commute is about 20 miles each way. If I take the highways going about 75 I get about 65-70 range. If I take the back roads going about 45, I get about 75 range and it's been cold here, below 40F. I would put it this way: Buy the car that fits your needs. You wouldn't by a 2 seat sports car and complain that you can't fit your family of 5 in it. You wouldn't buy a 4 door sedan if you needed a pick-up truck. I realized all I did with my previous car was drive back and forth to work. All family functions, long trips we took my wife's car. The I3 is perfect for me. I was very surprised how much I enjoyed the test drive. I had all the reasons I wanted to buy it sorted out before test drive and didn't have high expectations of the ride. I think it's incredibly fun to drive, whips along. I'd also compare it to buying an ipad, smartphone. You can always wait for the next wave of technology. It's going to come out quickly. It's a question of whether you'll get enough value out of what's out now to make it worthwhile. I feel like I can wait a few years and upgrade. I also think the comments about incentives are meaningful. The more popular these get, the quicker they'll go away. With all incentives, I got a beautiful new cutting edge technology vehicle for about 15k off (factory rebates, federal rebate, no sales tax from state). Add that to saving roughly 200 a month on gas and it's crazy savings I couldn't pass up for a car I'm enjoying and meets my needs.

The future looks bright on all this. When this gets to 10-15 minute charging and routinely 150-200 mile battery range, why would anyone buy gas again?

<<When this gets to 10-15 minute charging and routinely 150-200 mile battery range, why would anyone buy gas again?>>

1. 15 min charging only gets 80%
2. You cant drive to California or Florida in a practical sense
3. 200 mile batteries are a long way off, if ever, unless you have 4000 lbs worth
4. Lots of people don't live in homes for charging
5. It's why Japan, California, Toyota, Hyundai etc are putting their eggs in fuel cells

Ron

cove3 said:

<<When this gets to 10-15 minute charging and routinely 150-200 mile battery range, why would anyone buy gas again?>>

1. 15 min charging only gets 80%
2. You cant drive to California or Florida in a practical sense
3. 200 mile batteries are a long way off, if ever, unless you have 4000 lbs worth
4. Lots of people don't live in homes for charging
5. It's why Japan, California, Toyota, Hyundai etc are putting their eggs in fuel cells

Ron

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Fuel cells are not going to work out in my opinion. Infrastructure issues are going to kill that technology. Look at how easy it is to install electric charging stations and how cheap they are by comparison to hydrogen fueling stations. Think about range anxiety with fuel cells using hydrogen, it will be a very long time before you see it readily available and able to travel across country and not worry about where you will find hydrogen stations. I expect to be dead and buried before there is any kind of reasonable infrastructure. Yes California is behind it and look at their government is almost broke. And now we are seeing gas prices real low and expected to stay that way. No it is not going to happen in any significant way. Oh I forgot the cost to manufacture fuel cells is very costly do to the materials that are needed to contain the hydrogen.

I wonder if the car companies will include an ICE for range issues, like no hydrogen refueling station in Kansas, New Mexico or Utah.

I understand your points. But it's clear that the big players who really count and who have researched this to death have concluded to emphasize fuel cells over electric. US government, California, Japan, Toyota, Hyundai etc.

With their research and simulations and an army of people looking at the big picture eg large vehicles like trucks, availability of rare earths for a billion vehicles, probable need to mostly eliminate oil at some point in the future, practicality of chargers in apartments, battery range limitations and charge time, etc they've come down in favor of fuel cells as the future. I know one study showed 20% of existing gas stations meet the requirements so an infrastructure exists.

When the big guys make strategic decisions, you have to pay attention.

Ron

cove3 said:

I understand your points. But it's clear that the big players who really count and who have researched this to death have concluded to emphasize fuel cells over electric. US government, California, Japan, Toyota, Hyundai etc.

When the big guys make strategic decisions, you have to pay attention.

Ron

Click to expand...

I think you are mistaken, California has the US government has not. And I can't wait to see how many hydrogen stations there are in Kansas in 2020.

cove3 said:

I understand your points. But it's clear that the big players who really count and who have researched this to death have concluded to emphasize fuel cells over electric. US government, California, Japan, Toyota, Hyundai etc.

With their research and simulations and an army of people looking at the big picture eg large vehicles like trucks, availability of rare earths for a billion vehicles, probable need to mostly eliminate oil at some point in the future, practicality of chargers in apartments, battery range limitations and charge time, etc they've come down in favor of fuel cells as the future. I know one study showed 20% of existing gas stations meet the requirements so an infrastructure exists.

When the big guys make strategic decisions, you have to pay attention.

Ron

Click to expand...

Go and read more about fuel cells. I invested in 1999 and have been watching the market since. I think fuel cells have 5 more years of maybe, probably, could be, before battery tech leaves them behind. For ever.

The FC membranes are too expensive to manufacture, we need a whole new infrastrcture building to manufacture distribute and store hydrogen, the energy input vs energy used to drive the car is dysmal.

Yes they work in demonstation vehciles leased at a nett loss. But scale that up to hundreds of milions?

what rare earths are you worried about for batteries? Lithium which has plenty for years, Are you confused by the lies propogated by the oil industry about electric motors needing rare earths for the magnets? Thats not the case for induction motors which generate the magnetic field with electricity.