AC Charger Inlet Types - swappable?

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nitramluap

Well-known member
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Jul 14, 2016
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102
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My wife and I have ordered two 94Ah (non-REx) i3 vehicles here in Australia. They'll be here later in the year. Really looking forward to them.

I note that in Australia, despite us having a 3-phase 240V grid power supply, BMW are using the Type 1 (SAE) connector - the same as used in the US/Japan where it's single phase 120V. In Europe/UK, the i3 comes with the Type 2 (Mennekes) connector after they decided to ditch the Type 1 connector standard. I'm not sure if Australia has settled on any 'standard' for charging EVs and I'm having a great deal of difficulty finding out. I suspect the answer is 'no'. All current i3 vehicles in Australia use Type 1 and the dealers are clueless about anything technical.

One big advantage of the Type 2 connector is the ability to use a 3-phase supply with the one socket, allowing much higher AC charging rates (as well as other benefits to power supply distribution). I currently have a 3-phase supply in my house as well as a solar setup with battery storage which is all 3-phase AC. Type 1 (SAE) can only handle a single phase so the maximum AC charging by this method appears to be about 7.4kW.

I have read/heard that the i3 has the same on-board AC charger and wiring behind the inlet socket regardless of whether it's Type 1 or Type 2. The signalling protocols for the two are the same. So, my question is: if Australia decided to settle on the Type 2 (Mennekes) plug as the 'standard' for all new EVs going forward, is it a simple job to change the inlet socket on an i3 from a Type 1 socket to a Type 2 socket and wire it up accordingly?

Any clever boffins out there that can help? Thanks in advance.
 
http://www.i3guide.com/charging.html

Seems the Menneke plugs in EU are 32A single phase even if the Menneke system is capable of handling 3 phase.

Additional Cables

Your i3 will come with a standard 3pin (UK) '13amp plug to type-2' charging cable. This is for domestic and slow public chargers. But if you want to use the faster 7kW chargers, you'll need to buy the 'type-2 to type-2' Mennekes 7pin charger cable. Make sure to ask for the 32amp version rather than the older 16amp. BMW sell theirs for *£165 inc. VAT, which is a good price (collect yours at your local BMW parts dealer). Evconnectors.com 32 amp, 3-metre i3 cable works out slightly more expensive, costing *£140 exc. VAT, with the postage on top comes to a total of *£176.50.

*prices October 2015
 
Thanks for the reply.

Interesting...

Looking at the currently available wallboxes (in all markets), they all top out at 7.4kW. Even the Wallbox Pro's installation manual for a 'three phase supply' shows it only connecting to one of the three phases (although there is a bi-phase feed option - still only 7.4kW):
https://charging.bmwgroup.com/web/wbdoc/home

However, I wonder if the 2017 i3 has an updated on-board charger? This has been mentioned elsewhere:
http://pushevs.com/2016/04/07/bmw-i3-will-get-a-faster-internal-charger/

...and when you look at the updated BMW website on 'Charging' it shows a totally redesigned i-Wallbox for later this year and this text next to it:

"The charging output is up to 7.4 kW in single-phase mode and up to 11 kW with a three-phase supply."


charging-solutions-wallbox-pure_180.jpg


So perhaps they're taking advantage of the 3-phase Mennekes connector in Europe with the updated i3? This seems to make sense with the larger battery capacity, but it's going to mean countries with the Type 1 connecter will be limited to 7.4kW no matter what they do to the on-board AC charger... Unless it's possible to channel 11kW down a single pair of wires from a Type 1 socket (converting it to a single phase 45A supply)? I have no idea about any of this. I'm quite the newbie here!

Also, do you know if Australia has settled on a standard yet? I can't find any official information on it. Personally, it seems silly to go with the Type 1 connector if we're really looking to the future, particularly with larger batteries and many people wanting to charge at home/work without the expense of installing a DC station.
 
You need to understand that the charging circuits are actually IN the car, and the i3 is limited to a maximum of 7.4Kw from its internal power supply. An EVSE is simply a smart, on/off switch with a cord. The only time the car uses an external power supply is if you're doing a DC charge - in that case, you're essentially bypassing the internal power supply and applying DCV directly into the batteries. A larger internal power supply would require potentially more space (not readily available), potentially larger and more capable cooling system, and different power control circuits. From what I've read, BMW specifies a longer charging time for the larger battery in the 2017 which implies they did not change the on-board charging circuit.

While both the Euro Menikes and the US J1772 plugs include 3-phase inputs, the i3 does not have that type of receptacle, so cannot use one of those plugs (3-phase is much more common for things like busses or trucks where they need more power, quicker). Even if you changed the receptacle, the internal power supply is not wired to allow 3-phase power inputs, at least on any models I've seen. I seem to remember someone from either Belgium or Netherlands where 3-phase power is more common complaining, but I never saw any resolution to their issues.

IOW, the i3 is wired to accept single phase 110-240vac inputs.
 
jadnashuanh said:
You need to understand that the charging circuits are actually IN the car, and the i3 is limited to a maximum of 7.4Kw from its internal power supply. An EVSE is simply a smart, on/off switch with a cord.

No need for the condescending tone. I'm fully aware that the charger is in the car (except when DC charging) and if you read the thread (and look at BMW's updated website!) it's quite clear that the 2017 i3 has a charger that accepts 11kW via a new 3-phase Wallbox.

Whether that means the Wallbox converts the 3-phase supply into a single phase 45A supply (still 11kW) to the car via either a Type 1 or Type 2 connector, or that the car accepts the 3-phases via (only) a Type 2 (Mennekes) connector is what is unclear to me.

That's what I'm trying to work out.

jadnashuanh said:
From what I've read, BMW specifies a longer charging time for the larger battery in the 2017 which implies they did not change the on-board charging circuit.

As I've posted, BMW's updated site demonstrates quite clearly that the 2017 i3 has an updated 11kW charger...

jadnashuanh said:
While both the Euro Menikes and the US J1772 plugs include 3-phase inputs

That's not possible with a J1772 plug/socket as I understand it. You can't have three phases travelling down 3 wires (Live, Neutral & Ground), you need FIVE wires for that (L1, L2, L3, Neutral & Ground) and the i3 in Europe does indeed have a Mennekes socket which is designed for 3-phases, which is why it has 7 pins (five for power, two for data/connection). Whether it actually uses them is unclear... but the answer is probably 'no' by the sounds of things.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion from reading between the lines on various sites (including BMW's) that:
- the updated i3 does indeed have an updated 11kW AC charger
- that the new wallbox will convert a 3-phase supply to a single phase (probably up to 45-50A) for supply to the car via either Type 1 or Type 2 sockets
- that the car currently can't accept 3-phases at the plug (even if the Mennekes plug is designed for it), nor will the 2017 vehicle
 
The J1772 only uses the ground pin for safety, it is not part of the powering circuits during recharging. It does not need a separate neutral unless charging using level 1 (120vac) to complete the circuit...that pin becomes the second power lead when using 240vac single phase. To do 3-phase power, it would need only one more pin, and there was a proposal to allow that. Some trucks and busses use that plug, but not cars in the USA.

Many people consider the EVSE as a charger...if you were offended by me clarifying that for you and the others reading this, sorry...
 
jadnashuanh said:
The J1772 only uses the ground pin for safety, it is not part of the powering circuits during recharging. It does not need a separate neutral unless charging using level 1 (120vac) to complete the circuit...that pin becomes the second power lead when using 240vac single phase.

That's still not three-phase. My point - which I was simplifying to make it - is that the J1772 is not designed for transmitting 3-phase power (only single- or split-phase) whereas the new Wallbox takes a three-phase input and the Type 2 (Mennekes) socket is designed to handle a 3-phase supply.

What the new Wallbox does with a three-phase supply and a J1772 is unclear at this point. I'm hoping it will still allow a 11kW charge.

Once these vehicles start arriving in dealerships I'll know for sure what kind of charger it has installed and whether the J1772 socket can make the most of it, or if only those in Europe can charge at 11kW.
 
No standard for EVSE plugs in Australia. We already have at least two common types but the J1772 seems to be the most common.

Interesting if BMW is actually upping the charge rate on the new battery pack. That would mean a higher rate onboard charger. Sounds like a good move.

If they stay with the J1772 (be surprised if they don't) you can get a 75A Juicebox:

https://emotorwerks.com/store-juicebox-ev-charging-stations/1630-juicebox-pro-75-smart-75-amp-evse-with-24-foot-cable/

JuiceBox Pro 75 - SPECIFICATION
Output Power (max.)

• 75A, 18kW
• Circuit load balancing - configure two or more JuiceBox charging stations to never exceed the limit of your electrical supply circuit

Input Voltage

• 100-250 VAC, single phase

Input

• 4 FT pigtail; outdoor rated 6 AWG cable; ready for hardwire

Output Cable & Connecto

• 24 FT standard length
• SAE J1772 standard plug

Web Portal & EV JuiceBox App

• Set up various automatic notifications
• Access your data & control your charging anytime, anywhere

WiFi

• Built-in wifi connectivity, with easy setup

Product Dimensions

• 11 x 7 x 3.5 inches (H, W, D - main enclosure)

Shipping Dimensions

• 16 x 16 x 8 inches (H, W, D - dual walled box)

Weight

• ~21lb fully equipped (with cables)

Certifications

• CE, NEMA, and SAE compliant

Warranty

• 3 year manufacturer's warranty for residential usage
 
Thanks for this.

I'm considering something like this, not only to charge my new i3 but to also allow others to use the EVSE. If it's going to be 11kW or higher that will have some appeal. My solar array should mean that I'm not going to use the grid, even with an 11kW charger onboard.
 
How much solar have you got?

We have 10Kw but the winter production goes down a lot. Probably average of about 14kWh avg at worst. If we poured that into a battery, it wouldn't be enough to charge the i3 from empty. Also, remember that you lose some putting it into and pulling it out of a battery, so you would have a double loss if you went solar -> battery -> i3

Ours went in when there was still premium FIT, so we maximise daily feedin, and charge overnight from the grid. Over the year we are kWh and dollar positive.
 
I33t said:
How much solar have you got?

We have 10Kw but the winter production goes down a lot. Probably average of about 14kWh avg at worst. If we poured that into a battery, it wouldn't be enough to charge the i3 from empty. Also, remember that you lose some putting it into and pulling it out of a battery, so you would have a double loss if you went solar -> battery -> i3

Ours went in when there was still premium FIT, so we maximise daily feedin, and charge overnight from the grid. Over the year we are kWh and dollar positive.

Same... Installation in a few weeks. But at Latitude 27 I expect to see much better generation, even in winter, compared to Melbourne. Also, we have a battery storage 12kWh which will help balance load/demand and we barely use much electricity in the household (average daily use for the last 8 years is <10kWh). I also will only charge the car in the middle of the day and it will only be used for a few commutes. My main workplace allows me to commute by bicycle on dedicated bikeways... which is far nicer than driving any car as traffic is never an issue. :)

We won't have the cars until December so I'll report back when we've had them for a while - apparently production of all Australian orders only start in September... :-/
 
I33t said:
We do better with solar than Melbourne, so you should do well up there.

Hopefully.

I'm aiming to charge the cars only when solar is peaking - I can afford, time-wise, to spread out a 'full' charge over several days as I only drive a car a few days per week.

It will be nice to be able to push more than 7.4kW to the car if I have the capacity to do so and the window is small (around midday) with solar & battery storage inputs... and if we expand the solar array down the track. We should be able to power most of the car with solar I suspect.

If the car comes with an updated 11kW charger that will help but it will also be useful when using public charge stations (provided they can supply 11kW AC via a Type 1 connection).
 
At least in the states, very few of the installed public EVSE units can charge the i3 at its capacity. Residential power typically is 240vac, but lots of commercial power runs on 208vac, and the i3's charging circuits are current limited. My typical residential supply is about 247vac, and 30A unit essentially can max the i3.
 
OK... so it now looks like the onboard chargers for Europe will be different to that of the US (and Australia).

According to this report: http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-94-ah-test-drive-review/

"The other major upgrade this year for the 2017 BMW i3 in Europe is the option of a three-phase 11 kW on-board charger."

I suspect markets with vehicles using Type 1 Connectors are going to be limited to the 7.4kW on-board charger. Trust Australia to back the wrong horse when it comes to an EV charging standard for the future. :roll:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

J1772 can go up to 19.2kW it seems

I currently have gen 1 i3 REx, think I'll stick with it for now.
it is also faster 0-100 kmh since it is lighter.
 
FWIW, it is always the car that determines how much of the available power it wants to use, but the connector design and standards do set a max...it is not uncommon for the car to not be able to use the max (very common in the Leaf's level 2 input capability - originally limited to about 4Kw or so - more was optional, as was on the i3 in other markets).
 
So...

The first of the new Queensland Government 'Electric Super Highway' stations (Cairns) has been rolled out and it ONLY has Type 2 plugs, not Type 1 plugs (ignoring the CHAdeMo).

The station has:
- 2x Type 2 (Mennekes) AC sockets (ie. BYO cable) with a max rate of 22kW (three-phase)
- 1x Type 2 CCS (Combo2) DC fast charger (50kW)
- 1x CHAdeMO plug (50kW)

So the DC fast charger is compatible with current EVs with Type 1 CCS charging ports. Is this a sign that Australia will (sensibly) follow New Zealand's recent decision to make Type 2 the standard moving forward?

https://charge.net.nz/electric-vehicle-dc-rapid-charging-plug-type-is-about-to-change/

BMW Group New Zealand Managing Director Florian Renndorfer welcomes the new charging standard. “The change to Type 2 CCS plugs across the ChargeNow electric highway is a positive step, improving our country’s infrastructure and allowing even faster charging when travelling the length of New Zealand in electric vehicles.”

...and interestingly from New Zealand BMW i3 owners:

The plug type change will also future-proof New Zealand new BMW i3 (94Ah) model variants, offering AC charging up to 11kW. Affected New Zealand-new BMW i3 customers whose vehicles have a Type 1 CCS plug are being contacted directly by BMW as part of a vehicle upgrade programme. However, any BMW i3 customers should contact their nearest BMW i Dealer if they have any questions on the new charging standard.

So not only should we be able to easily swap the Type 1 sockets on the i3 to the Type 2 sockets, we (94Ah i3 owners) should also the ability to take advantage of three phase AC charging (to 11kW for this vehicle).

About time. Please don't cock this up Australia...

Anyone with industry knowledge know what's going on? Type 1 architecture needs to be killed off in Australia. It's a low power dead end.
 
Interesting stuff there.

So the i3 can use a type1 DC charging system, but there is no type1 AC charging system installed?

There is a significant number of EV's that have type1, why would they block them out? Any i3 that didn't order the DC charge system won't be able to charge on those chargers. That's an insult to any EV owners that have already bought an EV with a type1 charge port.

No problem to set standards for the future, but don't block out the early adopters.
 
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