Please Seriously Consider a 4WD SUV for the i-series

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shaoyu

Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
11
If there was a lingering doubt as to the market, the success of Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV should have already cleared it. I sincerely hope BMW would not sit still like GM did all these years while it had the technology lead. BMW currently is leading the carbon fiber body tech but the advantage window could slip away rather quickly if you don't pay attention.

In fact I think BMW is in a better position than GM currently to design a 4WD SUV EV. Given the technology in i8, it's apparently relatively easy to reuse a lot of drive train components for a SUV design. i8 reuses i3's electric motor. For a SUV design, it could reuse i3's motor, but 2x, one for front axle and one for rear. It could also reuse i8's 4WD control system, maybe even reuse i3's range extender (the range extender could be okay as long as there is hold mode).

This would be a much more attractive proposal than a modified X5 PHEV.

BMW i3 and i8 are of great interest to me, because the level of technology they demonstrate to the market. The only thing I am concerned is that, after all those investments that the top management are still not committed strategically, that would be a shame while it still has the strategic upper hand. Executed properly BMW could be a first class EV manufacturer together with Tesla within 3 years.
 
SUV kinda defeats the object of reducing energy wastage through weight and drag reduction.

Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is too big for cities and where will you charge it in the Kalahari desert off road?

Most objective reviewers state they like the concept of EV 4x4 but don't like the ride as much as the diesel version.
 
ecoangel said:
SUV kinda defeats the object of reducing energy wastage through weight and drag reduction.
As I have pointed out elsewhere, the i3 isn't actually very "green". But it's a super car.

I'm sure BMW's motivation for producing it was, as much as anything, to try and get their whole product line's CO2 average emissions down so they could keep selling gas-guzzlers. That's required by EU regulations, and explains why Aston-Martin sell a badged Smart car!

But an SUV, that's a great idea: I'd suggest about 50kW (around 70bhp) per wheel, on all four wheels. Controlling 4WD electrically would be much easier than with mechanical drive. Add maybe a 5-10kWh battery (lighter than the i3's 20kWh), and an engine big enough to cruise all day at perhaps 100mph. And a fuel tank for the engine adequate for 200 miles.
When you need a quick getaway or to pass vehicles at speed, the electrics are always there for the spine-wrenching acceleration! But it would be a pure electric drive, NOT a hybrid drive train, which is more complicated mechanically than pure electrics.

Oh, and let the engine keep the battery fully charged as well. If you do, the battery could be quite small.

An arrangement like that would offer another intriguing possibility. If the electrics could get you up to full speed on their own, the engine needn't be able to start quickly, so a gas turbine or - don't laugh! - a closed-cycle steam engine or Stirling engine could do the constant output work when you're up to speed on the battery.

It wouldn't be a pure electric car for the purists, and it wouldn't qualify for all the subsidies and allowances for EV's either. But it'd be a fabulous car to drive. And much of the technology must already exist at BMW.
 
I've watched year on year as each new model of BMW has reduced consumption, reduced CO2 and increased power.

I've been lucky enough to have access to some of these vehicles.

In the UK the local annual Road Tax is now based on CO2 emissions and the second hand value and purchase of 'gas guzzlers' has dropped markedly. I pay less tax on my 3.0 car then my son does on a 1.8 petrol - as it produces more CO2.

BMW know that they need to produce a car is great to drive not expensive to run. My best run was 57.7mpg last week on a motorway run.

So I don't agree that the i3 is to allow them to produce gas guzzlers because they don't. I do agree this may help them achieve range efficiency targets.

My straight 6 will be the last in the line as they are being replaced by 4 cylinder engines of higher power. The 4 cylinders are being replaced by 3 cylinders.

So preserving gas guzzling is not the objective of the i3. The highest possible efficiency, power output and low emissions is the objective - as well as being great to drive.
;)

 
Gonville said:
why isn't the Rex a small turbo diesel? Is the motorbike engine much lighter I guess?
Hi guys,

my 2cts: weight, size, complexity, cost, noise and, perhaps most importantly, emissions. In many EU cities they are 'hunting diesels down', due to the contribution of diesel engines to fine dust pollution. Using an EURO6 gas engine makes sense.

A compressed natural gas or LPG engine would have made the most sense IMHO, for it runs relatively clean (and cheap !). But this would defy the purpose of the REx, because then you have two systems on board with possible 'refueling' issues. LPG stations are quite common in NL though, so it would have been ideal for us, but CNG or LPG is much less used in the countries surrounding us (as in US and UK I'm guessing), so the gas/petrol engine is perhaps the better, obvious choise...

Steven

PS: I'm so glad BMW didn't start their E-run with a SUV type of vehicle... Compact is the new beautiful. Opinions may differ ;)
PS2: Oh, and I desperately want a jet-type engine in my car :) The coolest thing. The best sound.... Pity they don't scale down that well efficiency-wise, and are of questionable reliability for motorcar use. Lots of examples from the past (also in trains btw.) didn't make it. Check out Volvo's ECC if you like.
 
Gonville said:
why isn't the Rex a small turbo diesel? Is the motorbike engine much lighter I guess?

Unless such an engine would be exempt for any reason, opting for petrol avoids DPF issues, which I'm heartily sick of. After becoming a diesel fan 12 years ago (after an S3 of all things) I had pretty much decided that DPFs have spolied diesels, although I recognise the environmental benefits, and would probably have reverted to petrol had the i3 not come along. A £600 bill to replace an exhaust gas sensor at 42,000 on my wife's 4 year old VAG 1.6 Tdi 105 wipes out quite a lot of diesel cost savings. I dread to think how much more it would have cost if I hadn't used a trusted local specialist independent. The nearest dealer wanted to charge me £90 to run the diagnostics before doing anything at all, the independent did that for nothing in 10 mins.
 
I'm sure BMW's motivation for producing it was, as much as anything, to try and get their whole product line's CO2 average emissions down so they could keep selling gas-guzzlers. That's required by EU regulations, and explains why Aston-Martin sell a badged Smart car!

The Aston Martin is a Toyota not a Smart car. Equally awful though of course.
 
FrancisJeffries said:
I'm sure BMW's motivation for producing it was, as much as anything, to try and get their whole product line's CO2 average emissions down so they could keep selling gas-guzzlers. That's required by EU regulations, and explains why Aston-Martin sell a badged Smart car!

Well they have a AM badged small car in their line up, but the phrase sell is a bit inappropriate. Do they have to sell any to get the benefit or do they just need to produce one? :)

Bill
 
electricvirgin said:
I'm sure BMW's motivation for producing it was, as much as anything, to try and get their whole product line's CO2 average emissions down so they could keep selling gas-guzzlers. That's required by EU regulations, and explains why Aston-Martin sell a badged Smart car!

The Aston Martin is a Toyota not a Smart car. Equally awful though of course.

Actually the IQ is not a bad little car, far superior to the Smart and we have had both over the years.

My wife's IQ is now four years old and I often use it in preference to my 3.0 litre Jaguar XF.

An I3 is on order to replace the IQ but my wife insists upon keeping the IQ until she is sure that she likes the replacement as much. ;)

Mike
 
I would seriously consider a small iDrive 4wd SUV (or SAV as BMW would call it) something smaller then the upcoming Tesla Model X.

I like Tesla products, I just think they are too big.
 
Now 2 years have passed since I made this thread. It's always sad to see a company with state-of-art technology fails to execute in the market.

Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV sold 43K worldwide in 2015, same as Nissan Leaf, only behind Tesla Model S.
BMW i3 sold 24K worldwide in the same period, ranked #5.
And BMW sitting idly in the last two years in the EV front watching Mitsubishi, Tesla, and now BYD taking over the market. Clearly some of the folks in this thread still have no clue. The world market for SUV is going to be bigger than sedan. 2016's game is between Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, Tesla Model X and BYD Tang.

Instead, BMW could have made this and hitting EV market with a huge bang today:

bmw_i5_front_watermarked.jpg

bmw_i5_rear_watermarked.jpg


Say what now, BMW, are you still going to keep dragging your feet wasting all these wonderful technology lead and eventually getting left in the dust?
 
really? BMW is dragging their feet? The i3 and i8 only just launched in 2014 after years of development. Do you know how the industry works? You can't just pump out new models every year like cell phone mfgs can.

The i5 will come soon, it could be a 'crossover', who knows... the whole crossover suv phenomenon only just took off in the last 5yrs or so, it takes time for oem's to react to market changes... and noone really knows where the EV market is going since its in its infancy. Have some patience.
 
+1

Producing a new model from scratch with a new electric drivetrain requires years of development. Even then, the vehicle has to go through third party crash testing and design requirements per country etc to allow it to be sold.

The Mitsubishi PHEV? It's an existing FF vehicle that has been equipped with partial EV capability. Comparing such a PHEV with the Nissan Leaf, the Teslas and the i3 is not a fair comparison. The direct comparisons for the i3 are the iMiev and the Leaf:

The iMiev is their only true EV and I don't think it has been a runaway success but it has been a consistent option in the markets it is in. It has been on the market since 2009 and sales have been 32,000 worldwide up to 2014 according to wikipedia. That makes average yearly sales around 6400.

Global Nissan Leaf sales passed the 200,000 unit milestone by December 2015. Sales began late 2010, so we are looking at 5 years, around 40,000 vehicles per year.

The i3 has been on sale since late 2013, so a bit over 2 years. Since its introduction, global cumulative sales totalled 41,586 units through December 2015. I think that makes it approaching 20,000 vehicles per year.
 
Yes they are dragging their feet, the latest murmur was that another i series car won't come out before 2020, because they still haven't decided what to make. They have wasted the past 3 years on X5 xDrive40e, which is a huge step backward in terms of EV design.

If a rookie car player called Tesla can go from releasing Model S in 2012 and to releasing Model X in 2015, I am sure BMW and GM et al. can find a way too. Except they don't have an EV visionary leading the charge. The i3, and i8 were in production in 2013, otherwise I wouldn't have made this thread in Feb 2014. BMW was due for i5 release this year if they were to keep pace with Musk.

Except it was just like I doubted, the leadership at BMW is not fully committed to EV. Despite the fact that they have great technology that matches Tesla, that could have been a breathtaking match between Tesla's purist BEV and BMW's pragmatism in EREV, yet the match was already lost at the will.

I would sincerely hope BMW leadership could realize their error and turn it around while there is still time. BMW is still the only serial hybrid player embodied in i3 (although Nissan will enter the game soon), serial hybrid is quite possibly the only competitive alternative to pure BEV in the future.

SSi3 said:
really? BMW is dragging their feet? The i3 and i8 only just launched in 2014 after years of development. Do you know how the industry works? You can't just pump out new models every year like cell phone mfgs can.

The i5 will come soon, it could be a 'crossover', who knows... the whole crossover suv phenomenon only just took off in the last 5yrs or so, it takes time for oem's to react to market changes... and noone really knows where the EV market is going since its in its infancy. Have some patience.
 
FWIW, BMW has released various regular vehicles with hybrid drivetrains, learning off of the I-series research. I don't really view the Tesla stuff as cutting edge. WE have a chicken-egg situation about refueling long-distance EV's. You need a market to provide incentive for large-scale refueling, or spend LOTS of money subsidizing it. There's a limit on how much of that you can do and remain profitable. Tesla is not a good example...they haven't made any money yet, and are unlikely to for at least a few more years. Then, if you really want to go anywhere, anytime, you can't. Thus, hybrids are more likely to be useful in the near term, and BMW has spent money there.
 
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