i01guy
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 12:51 pm

Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:23 am

Sorry for the first post thread starter - but I have some information that I'd like to share.

There are some concerns about the 60Ah i3's ability to maintain ZEV certification, especially in states that have adopted CARB regulations.

Basically, if you own a 60Ah i3 in the US and have experienced range degradation consistently demonstrating 10 or more miles of range lost and/or greater than 10% battery capacity losses compared to OEM specifications, your information is especially useful for data collection. It doesn't matter which state you live in.

If your i3 is equipped with REx, and your indicated fully-fueled gasoline range is greater than your indicated fully-charged electric range, this is also of interest.

Anyone with any i3 is free to take the survey, however. All of the information collected is potentially useful.

You'll need the last 7 of your VIN to get started. Obviously participation is completely voluntary. I will try to field any questions you may have as time allows.

https://forms.gle/QQ7DfPTwmEietxnP9

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MKH
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Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:48 am
Location: Dallas

Re: Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:15 am

Isn't ZEV Certification just for new cars manufactured?
Mark H.
2015 i3 Rex, Capparis White, Tera World, Technology & Driving Assistant, Parking Assistant, Harman Kardon Audio System, 19 inch 427 wheels, EVoInnovate EVSE

i01guy
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 12:51 pm

Re: Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:58 am

CARB didn't define a sunset date on vehicle certification*. Since ZEV ratings are emissions ratings and BMW has emissions warranties in place that include the HV battery for up to 10 years or 150k miles (in applicable states), a degrading battery that causes failure to conform to ZEV regulations is an emissions failure and therefore should be covered under warranty. Ergo, 60 Ah i3s that have lost as little as 10% HV battery capacity are no longer compliant with regs and should be repaired under warranty.

The higher capacity cars will rarely have problems meeting ZEV Type II (Type IIx for REx vehicles) requirements. But since the 60 Ah i3 had very little margin of passing to attain the Type II designation, minor degradation causes failure to conform.

So it's particularly of the 60 Ah car owners' best interest to complete the survey in the first post in order to appeal to the correct party/parties.

*Arguably for the vehicle's "useful life" as defined in CFR 86.1805-04, 10 years/120k miles

vreihen
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:55 pm
Location: Orange County, NY (FN21vm)

Re: Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:22 pm

MKH wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:15 am
Isn't ZEV Certification just for new cars manufactured?
This thread looks to me like either somebody playing lawyer on the Internet because their 2014 batteries are down to 89% capacity, or else they are fishing for a class action suit and trying to put together a case to waste the BMW legal department's time.

After having perused the 2015 warranty book a few times, I can find no mention that the BEV i3 is classified as a ZEV under CARB for warranty purposes. REx cars are classified as "Type IIx ZEV" under CARB. As a matter of fact, the nice table on pages 28-29 has a whole lot of references to footnote #1 (refer to the manufacturer's new vehicle limited warranty statement on page 17-18) for the items covered under the California Emissions Warranty Parts List on a BEV car:

Image

BMW's lawyers like the term "conform at the time of sale" in the warranty book, with a 2/24K federal conformance warranty that surely will be over on just about every 60 i3 by now.

The REx models appear to fall under CARB Type IIx ZEV, but I'm not going to dig any deeper into the docs since I don't own a REx or have any interest in it.

Let me throw in my obligatory disclaimer that I am not a lawyer, and didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night..... ;)
2015 BMW i3 BEV, Giga World, Tech and Driving Assistant packages, 15K miles

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MKH
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Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:48 am
Location: Dallas

Re: Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:09 am

BMW's lawyers like the term "conform at the time of sale" in the warranty book, with a 2/24K federal conformance warranty that surely will be over on just about every 60 i3 by now.
Yup, and what's the penalty if older cars fail to conform to their 'new car' ZEV certification? The auto manufacturer loses a few ZEV points?

And with 'battery degradation' very hard to nail down - don't see this going anywhere. BMW must have a test procedure they use for battery 'health' but no one seems to know exactly what it is. The battery kappa figure seems to be a software 'guess'. The range display even more-so. If you drive like you stole it - you get decreased range. Cold weather impacts the range. Hot weather impacts the range. If you don't charge the car using pre-conditioning, which allows it to cell balance and heats or cools the battery pack to optimum operating temp - you get decreased range (case in point - for the first few months of ownership of my used 2015 Rex, I never set pre-conditioning. Advertised range for my car new was 79 miles. My average range displayed, fully charged, was around 74 miles. Started setting pre-conditioning, still only plugging it in overnight two or three times a week, when really needing to charge up, and after a few months of pre-conditioned charging, my range-displayed at full charge is normally around 82 miles).
Mark H.
2015 i3 Rex, Capparis White, Tera World, Technology & Driving Assistant, Parking Assistant, Harman Kardon Audio System, 19 inch 427 wheels, EVoInnovate EVSE

vreihen
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:55 pm
Location: Orange County, NY (FN21vm)

Re: Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:27 am

MKH wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:09 am
Yup, and what's the penalty if older cars fail to conform to their 'new car' ZEV certification? The auto manufacturer loses a few ZEV points?
Unless your name is Volkswagen, in which case it'll cost you a couple billion bucks to build some desperately-needed public charging stations.

FWIW, Electrify America is building one a few miles from my house right now on VW's dime:

Image
2015 BMW i3 BEV, Giga World, Tech and Driving Assistant packages, 15K miles

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MKH
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Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:48 am
Location: Dallas

Re: Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:07 am

Unless your name is Volkswagen, in which case it'll cost you a couple billion bucks to build some desperately-needed public charging stations.
Yeah, deliberate fraud can get expensive :mrgreen:
Mark H.
2015 i3 Rex, Capparis White, Tera World, Technology & Driving Assistant, Parking Assistant, Harman Kardon Audio System, 19 inch 427 wheels, EVoInnovate EVSE

gt1
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:31 pm
Location: Baltimore

Re: Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:30 pm

MKH wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:09 am
BMW must have a test procedure they use for battery 'health' but no one seems to know exactly what it is.
The BMW ISTA+ software has a battery testing procedure. It involves fully discharging with the cabin heater and other accessories and charging to 100%. I haven't tried it and don't know how the results look like. I also heard a rumor that BMW can reduce or remove the top and bottom safety reserves to give the battery an usable capacity boost.

The REX emission warranty in ZAV states is a lot better than BEV.

3pete
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:03 pm

Re: Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:31 pm

@OP I took your survey. Except since I usually only take surveys where there's something in it for me, I filled in yours with fake data. To be at least somewhat nice, I made it pretty obvious that it was fake data. Without knowing the motivation for survey takers, you're going to have a hard time believing any of the data you collect.

@vreihen I believe you may be on to something. There seems to be an underlying "lawsuit-y" theme in the disclaimers of the survey.

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n1o2c3a4c5h6e7t
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 12:35 pm

Re: Range/Battery Degradation - Data Requested

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:19 am

How am I supposed to tell if my battery degradation has exceeded 10%? My range is between 60-70 miles (2014 BEV) in the summer (with the AC blasting and the windows open, in Texas). How am I supposed to tell if this is battery performance or my own inefficient usage? This survey is meaningless without a more controlled environment.

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