Software update needed for HV battery capacity check

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Joff

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
86
I brought my 2014 i3 bev to a BMW dealership to get a hv battery capacity check done. I had been seeing the secret menu estimate of battery capacity bouncing around from 13.2 to 12.8 and back. They seemed to want me to phrase the request in the form of a complaint, as in "I am experiencing reduced range" Really, I'm just selling the car, and I am curious if it might qualify for warrantee replacement. They said they would do it for $169, but then came back a few days later and said the have to do a $250 software update before they could do the $169 capacity test. I read somewhere that BMW dosn't charge for the update, but that some dealerships do. Is there a zip drive I can order and do this myself?
 
As someone in a rather similar position, this is a bit frustrating to hear. My only helpful advice would be that you could try calling different dealers around you to see if anyone is more receptive to your situation.

Now, for my griping:
I am not a lawyer but I am perplexed how BMW could require a paid update to software in order to test a warranty threshold. In my (non-lawyer) mind, I would think if you approached BMW to say, essentially, "my car is no longer meeting the conditions we agreed upon when I bought it" it is their obligation to say that you are either a) wrong (hopefully specifying a reason why), or b) correct, but they will "remedy it". I can understand having to pay the dealer for their time and effort if there is nothing actually wrong, but can't fathom how they could say "we can't even test this thing that is covered under warranty from the original purchase until you pay us for an upgrade... that was not stipulated in the original purchase."

Sadly, I'm guessing that's covered in their fine print legalese somewhere, so... please pay them so I don't have to :) and report back!

Between this and the connected services 3G cutoff, it's like BMW is going out of their way to piss off as many people as possible! :(
 
Joff said:
Is there a zip drive I can order and do this myself?
Unfortunately, not. Media and phone updates can be downloaded to a zip drive and installed in an i3, but system software updates cannot.
 
3pete said:
try calling different dealers around you to see if anyone is more receptive to your situation.
I tried my local dealer first, and they told me the CAR WILL CALL THEM when the battery needs to be checked! I interpreted this as "we don't want to work on your electric" When I brought it to a dealership that does work on a lot of i3s, they didn't check the battery as requested, they said it failed to charge and needs a new EME which will be over $9k! I didn't believe them, it was charging fine before I brought it in and charged fine after I got it home. I said just check the battery like I asked, that's when they came back requiring a software update.
 
Joff said:
I said just check the battery like I asked, that's when they came back requiring a software update.
I'm suspicious about this software update requirement. Might it be that recent software versions fix a BMS problem that results in the gradual loss of usable capacity in 60 Ah i3's? If so, BMW should offer this update to all 60 Ah i3 owners who have experienced significant usable capacity loss. 94 Ah and 120 Ah battery packs don't seem to be losing usable capacity at anywhere near the rate of some 60 Ah battery packs. The fact that reinitializing the BMS with ISTA+ can restore usable capacity on 60 Ah battery packs but doesn't on 94 Ah battery packs points to the BMS as the problem that a software update might fix. This is all conjecture, but it seems plausible.
 
Joff said:
I tried my local dealer first, and they told me the CAR WILL CALL THEM when the battery needs to be checked! I interpreted this as "we don't want to work on your electric" When I brought it to a dealership that does work on a lot of i3s, they didn't check the battery as requested, they said it failed to charge and needs a new EME which will be over $9k! I didn't believe them, it was charging fine before I brought it in and charged fine after I got it home. I said just check the battery like I asked, that's when they came back requiring a software update.

Just curious if you had any luck on this front? I think what I've learned in the last month is to not believe anything that BMW NA or the dealer says unless it's legally binding. When I took my car into the dealer for a capacity check I wasn't really getting anywhere until I referenced the 8 year/ 100k warranty which is federally mandated and BMW chose to include a 70% capacity provision (even though that is not required by US law).

Since then, I also have my strong suspicions that a software update increased my capacity by about 20% (https://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17409) so if you have any gripes about range/capacity, I think BMW should upgrade your software for free.
 
For the guy who said they wanted to do an EME replacement first, that sounds like what Fiat is doing on owners with failing battery packs on 500e’s. They’re claiming the inverter is bad, not covered under warranty, and for $7k you can get that replaced and THEN they’ll be able to tell *if* the battery needs to be replaced. The 500e is a cheaper car than the i3, so at this point $7k effectively totals it and folks just walk away from it entirely, keeping Fiat from having to put the battery in it.

As for the required software update, they can’t make you pay for that. They can try, but they can’t make you pay for it. You may have to scream from the mountaintops, but they will do the test without it. But what they’re going to end up doing is a “free” software update that “fixes” your battery issue. What it’s really going to do is just open up more of the capacity that is locked out from day one, which is essentially just kicking the can down the road some on your battery replacement requirement. It will mean that your battery will be charged to a much higher percentage of its available capacity than it has been in the past, which will accelerate degradation. But it’ll probably get them past the warranty period, so they still win.


—Donnie
 
Joff said:
I tried my local dealer first, and they told me the CAR WILL CALL THEM when the battery needs to be checked! I interpreted this as "we don't want to work on your electric"

This is what will happen on normal gas BMWs when the 12V dies or there is a high drain from something like the lights getting left on. It's called teleservice battery guard and it's not available on the i3 at all. So either that person you talked to has no idea about i3's or they were actually trying to discourage you. It was probably actual ignorance, but it's also likely that they don't want to work on the i3 as well.
 
I have just had the same issue. Battery capacity down to about 65% of original (2014 22kwh battery version) as calculated for each trip and also on the Kappa Max feature on the computer.
BMW were very reluctant to deal with this, but eventually did. They took the car for 6 days and after 2 days asked for me to pay for the software update. I refused as it is a warranty claim and I could substantiate the failing battery. After the upgrade and then testing they said the battery was at 75% of its original capacity. I was VERY sceptical BUT after getting the car it is now running at about 75% capacity as tested. The conclusion has to be that the software update is fixing a BMS issue, or they are manipulating the battery electrically during the testing process to get its capacity up. Either way capacity is not great, but is better by about 15% (of 65%) so they save a warranty claim.
What disappoints me most was the attitude towards me making the claim. I gave them a poor review for the service (survey sent to me after service) and I then got a phone call back from them telling me basically I had no right to give them a poor review. And there I was thinking the survey was to improve their customer service. How silly of me.
 
These people are children. Companies want all the benefits of being companies...the tax breaks, the incentives, the corporate protection, all the BS they get away with, the mass amounts of money and profit they make. Yet when it comes to honoring contracts and agreements, they become psychopaths and rabid fools.

They get away with this because we...as consumers...almost never take them to task. Just look up the Formosa Plastics debacle.
 
samorth said:
I have just had the same issue. Battery capacity down to about 65% of original (2014 22kwh battery version) as calculated for each trip and also on the Kappa Max feature on the computer.
BMW were very reluctant to deal with this, but eventually did. They took the car for 6 days and after 2 days asked for me to pay for the software update. I refused as it is a warranty claim and I could substantiate the failing battery. After the upgrade and then testing they said the battery was at 75% of its original capacity. I was VERY sceptical BUT after getting the car it is now running at about 75% capacity as tested. The conclusion has to be that the software update is fixing a BMS issue, or they are manipulating the battery electrically during the testing process to get its capacity up. Either way capacity is not great, but is better by about 15% (of 65%) so they save a warranty claim.
What disappoints me most was the attitude towards me making the claim. I gave them a poor review for the service (survey sent to me after service) and I then got a phone call back from them telling me basically I had no right to give them a poor review. And there I was thinking the survey was to improve their customer service. How silly of me.

These cars, from the factory, only utilized 80% of the *actual* battery capacity. This was by design because they wanted to maximize battery life. Had they let it use 100% we would have all gotten way more range, but the batteries wouldn’t have lasted nearly as many years. But many aren’t making it quite out of the warranty period. BMW changed a few, but quickly realized how much that was going to cost, so they came up with another solution…the software update. All it does is instead of stopping at 80%, it probably goes to like 90% now. That will ultimately reduce your long term life even further, but will probably get them past the warranty window so they don’t care.

I’m not sure there’s anything we as consumers can do about it, since they sold the car based more on the mileage range, and if they can get you within a reasonable percentage of that for the 8 years of warranty that’s all they care about.


—Donnie
 
It is still fudging the figures. 70% of 18.8 kwh is 13.16, so as soon as the capacity drops below that, the warranty is triggered. If they then open up the "hidden capacity", the denominator is now 22.2 kwh and 70% of that is 15.54, so if all you are doing is redefining the Kappa max (to use their terms), then if the capacity falls below 15.54, that is less than 70% of original, and warranty should be triggered.

This is not hugely dissimilar to the conduct of VW with their defeater chip in their diesel vehicles, and that did not end well for them. BMW need to be held to account. You know they are hiding something because of the cloak and dagger stuff regarding exactly what they do when the car is being tested. 6 days to test a battery raises more questions than it answers.
 
What really matters is irreversible battery cell degradation. With a BMS controlling battery pack charging and discharging, it's nearly impossible for mere mortals to measure actual irreversible cell degradation. I suppose we could map battery pack or cell voltages to actual charge levels to determine actual usable pack capacity and not depend on the amount of usable energy available. E.g., if we know that a cell voltage of 4.?? V is a 100% actual charge level and define some voltage as an actual 0% charge level (that might be more subjective than the maximum voltage), we could use cell voltage to determine the actual usable capacity independent of what the BMS is doing. The iOS mi3 app, the Android electrified app, and ISTA+ all display maximum and minimum cell voltages, so maybe we could use this information to get a better idea of cell health independent of the BMS. Am I delusional?
 
Is the 70% threshold for warranty measured from full capacity or usable capacity?
 
Its irrelevant. All that matters is, if you start quoting capacity according to the 18.8 kwh (available) you must finish measuring the same. You cannot start measuring the available and then finish measuring relative to the 22.2 kwh total capacity. My battery capacity is down to 65% original, but with the software update opening the extra 2.4kwh for the measurements, it looks like 75% original. And, opening that extra up will result in rapid deterioration of the battery from here on in. But BMW know that will happen out of the battery warranty period, cleverly sidestepping their warranty "obligations" it would seem.
This is dishonesty similar to how VW made ways to evade the emissions standards in their diesel vehicles, and paid a high price for doing so.
 
samorth said:
Its irrelevant. All that matters is, if you start quoting capacity according to the 18.8 kwh (available) you must finish measuring the same. You cannot start measuring the available and then finish measuring relative to the 22.2 kwh total capacity. My battery capacity is down to 65% original, but with the software update opening the extra 2.4kwh for the measurements, it looks like 75% original. And, opening that extra up will result in rapid deterioration of the battery from here on in. But BMW know that will happen out of the battery warranty period, cleverly sidestepping their warranty "obligations" it would seem.
This is dishonesty similar to how VW made ways to evade the emissions standards in their diesel vehicles, and paid a high price for doing so.

I don't know if I agree with that. What proof is there that rapid battery degradation will occur because they allow more useable battery?

I have a 94aH (33.2kWh) battery. 27.2kWh supposed to be the usable. My Kappa is averaging 29 kWh via only 2 data points...not enough I know but that's all I have at the moment to go by.

So Using Nominal:

70% of 33.2 = 23.3 kWh

Using Usable:

70% of 27.2 kWh = 19.04 kWh

I am assuming that while my car was at the dealership for a week having all warranty work done on it after my purchase that they updated both the iDrive and the car's own software. I have the new battery "symbol" so I'm guessing the battery update was done as well. No way to know on my end.
 
samorth said:
Its irrelevant. All that matters is, if you start quoting capacity according to the 18.8 kwh (available) you must finish measuring the same. You cannot start measuring the available and then finish measuring relative to the 22.2 kwh total capacity. My battery capacity is down to 65% original, but with the software update opening the extra 2.4kwh for the measurements, it looks like 75% original. And, opening that extra up will result in rapid deterioration of the battery from here on in. But BMW know that will happen out of the battery warranty period, cleverly sidestepping their warranty "obligations" it would seem.
This is dishonesty similar to how VW made ways to evade the emissions standards in their diesel vehicles, and paid a high price for doing so.

I hear you and I agree that it’s quite the shenanigan to pull, but I’m not sure it’s as clear cut to *prove* in a court of law as you make it seem.


—Donnie
 
Arm said:
I don't know if I agree with that. What proof is there that rapid battery degradation will occur because they allow more useable battery?

Because that’s how this particular battery technology works. It’s why Tesla recommends NOT charging past 80% unless you NEED to. It’s why you’re not supposed to charge a Tesla from 80->100% in that case until *right* before you leave if you’re gonna do it. You can ignore both of these recommendations if you want, but they tell you up front if you do that it will shorten your battery’s life.

That’s why BMW only allows 80% to be used in the first place. I’m not sure how you can argue this, tbh.

And I’m not saying a Tesla battery, charged daily to 100%, is going to “degrade rapidly.” I’m saying it’s going to degrade a lot more rapidly than one that ISN’T charged that way, but what “rapidly” is in this case isn’t well defined. What is quite likely, however, is that a 7yo or so battery that’s already degrading and then has more of that ceiling opened up *is* likely to decline pretty rapidly.


—Donnie
 
djbrh said:
Arm said:
I don't know if I agree with that. What proof is there that rapid battery degradation will occur because they allow more useable battery?

Because that’s how this particular battery technology works. It’s why Tesla recommends NOT charging past 80% unless you NEED to. It’s why you’re not supposed to charge a Tesla from 80->100% in that case until *right* before you leave if you’re gonna do it. You can ignore both of these recommendations if you want, but they tell you up front if you do that it will shorten your battery’s life.

That’s why BMW only allows 80% to be used in the first place. I’m not sure how you can argue this, tbh.

And I’m not saying a Tesla battery, charged daily to 100%, is going to “degrade rapidly.” I’m saying it’s going to degrade a lot more rapidly than one that ISN’T charged that way, but what “rapidly” is in this case isn’t well defined. What is quite likely, however, is that a 7yo or so battery that’s already degrading and then has more of that ceiling opened up *is* likely to decline pretty rapidly.


—Donnie

These are assumptions based on fast charging. If you're home charging most of the time, it's not an issue.

It's better to have the car plugged in and be conditioned than not. My garage hits 100 F inside in the summer. If I don't have my car plugged in, it's worse for the battery to sit in that heat all day.
 
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