BMW R&D Boss - "...very hard to replace the batteries..."

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bm88

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New to the forum and found this on a well respected car news site:

Current i3 and i8 owners should know they won't be able to benefit from the improvements made in battery technology because Froehlich said it would be very hard to replace the batteries since these are integrated and bonded into the chassis.
From: http://www.worldcarfans.com/115031490512/third-bmw-i-model-coming-after-2020-wont-be-based

Given with the LEAF it was made quite clear from the start batteries could be replaced easily, this is a distinct disadvantage for the i3 if true.

After trying a few EVs and accepting the limitations, I had been starting to look for a lightly used i3 but as I'd be keeping the car long term I do find this worrying.
 
bm88 said:
New to the forum and found this on a well respected car news site:

Current i3 and i8 owners should know they won't be able to benefit from the improvements made in battery technology because Froehlich said it would be very hard to replace the batteries since these are integrated and bonded into the chassis.
From: http://www.worldcarfans.com/115031490512/third-bmw-i-model-coming-after-2020-wont-be-based

Given with the LEAF it was made quite clear from the start batteries could be replaced easily, this is a distinct disadvantage for the i3 if true.

After trying a few EVs and accepting the limitations, I had been starting to look for a lightly used i3 but as I'd be keeping the car long term I do find this worrying.

That is contrary to the generally statements I've read here and elsewhere along the lines that all i dealers will be equipped with the necessary tools to replace the i3 batteries, for which labour costs are expected around €500. In other words it's a quick job. Since the battery is warrantied I'm surprised BMW are saying they are hard to replace.

Anyone know for sure the truth here?

Bill
 
Bunter said:
bm88 said:
New to the forum and found this on a well respected car news site:

Current i3 and i8 owners should know they won't be able to benefit from the improvements made in battery technology because Froehlich said it would be very hard to replace the batteries since these are integrated and bonded into the chassis.
From: http://www.worldcarfans.com/115031490512/third-bmw-i-model-coming-after-2020-wont-be-based

Given with the LEAF it was made quite clear from the start batteries could be replaced easily, this is a distinct disadvantage for the i3 if true.

After trying a few EVs and accepting the limitations, I had been starting to look for a lightly used i3 but as I'd be keeping the car long term I do find this worrying.

That is contrary to the generally statements I've read here and elsewhere along the lines that all i dealers will be equipped with the necessary tools to replace the i3 batteries, for which labour costs are expected around €500. In other words it's a quick job. Since the battery is warrantied I'm surprised BMW are saying they are hard to replace.

Anyone know for sure the truth here?

Bill

Bottom line as battery technology improves BMW wants to sell new cars with it rather then start retrofiting.
 
Bunter said:
i dealers will be equipped with the necessary tools to replace the i3 batteries, for which labour costs are expected around €500. In other words it's a quick job.
That much labor is 10 hours, or thereabouts.

Not really "quick", is it?
 
Batteries are relatively easily replaced. See this:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096123_bmw-i3-electric-car-teardown-profitable-at-20000-units-says-engineer-video

It's always a worry when someone new to the forum posts something like this. Hopefully you're interested in electric cars and not in sowing doubt about electric cars.
 
Hi Janner,

I'm completely not just trying to discredit electric cars.

As I said, I've experienced many of the EVs on sale, am very interested in the technology, accept the limitations and am narrowing in on purchasing one - quite likely a REX i3. I just saw the article and noticed it hadn't been posted here.

I know Nissan have clearly stated the price of a battery replacement and I wish BMW could commit to a firm 'all in' figure too rather than saying it is X hours labour.
 
The i3's battery is modular and each module is designed to be replaced in case of premature degradation or failure.

Whether a better battery can or will become available in the future is unknown, but the existing battery must be able to be replaced if it can be maintained per module.
 
People always talk about battery upgrade.
But its just like any other car and parts from models above it.
Take a 328 and a M3, upgrading the 328 to M3 is expensive, complicated.
Or upgrading EFI to direct injection from a new model. Almost not possible.
So why would it be any different with a EV?
Future tech is applied to new products, not for retrofit.

Like others said, companies want you to by the new one, not upgrade it. just like an iphone.
 
Changing an individual battery in a module would not be feasible at a dealership, but replacing them by module, does not appear to be all that difficult. Now, assuming they do last a decent amount of time (some Prius batteries are still good from the first fielded ones), you may want the new tech from a new vehicle rather than just changing the batteries. This is akin to swapping a motor on a car...not inexpensive, but the costs may not justify the expense. Any conjecture on future battery capacity and whether it would be worthwhile swapping for the average person is just that, a guess. It's unknown at this point, how much of a core refund there may be, either...the battery pack is very likely to still be viable for some other functions, and will have a value. Just not sure how much.
 
Edman951 said:
People always talk about battery upgrade.
But its just like any other car and parts from models above it.
Take a 328 and a M3, upgrading the 328 to M3 is expensive, complicated.
Or upgrading EFI to direct injection from a new model. Almost not possible.
So why would it be any different with a EV?
Future tech is applied to new products, not for retrofit.

Like others said, companies want you to by the new one, not upgrade it. just like an iphone.
Changing the batteries is MUCH simpler than changing out the myriad of parts that are different between a 328 and an M3, or even just replacing the M3 parts that are different with the same M3 parts. If BMW can evolve their battery technology such that the same volume of battery can get, say 50% greater capacity (kWh) in the same form factor, then swapping in the new tech batteries should be no different than replacing the old batteries with new, except that the SW will need to be updated to know what the new capacity is. So long as the pack voltage is the same, then all should be good to swap. It is likely that the next get lithium will have nearly the same voltage, too. Only if BMW decides to change the form factor of the cells would a swap be difficult.

It is not unusual for a car manufacturer to upgrade a part design, and then use the new design for repair or recall replacement work. It is not unlikely that a new battery with higher capacity would fit this description. I would expect the 2018 i3 will have higher capacity batteries in the same form factor. They may charge more for the improved cells, however, than for replacement with the original capacity cells.
 
don't forget, its not just the battery cells, but also the ECU and cooling and charger, and other thing i'm sure that need to be adjusted or upgraded.
very complicated technology.
Knowing BMW always improves, remember this is the first generation, so i bet it will have big changes for gen2, and not be compatible.

The cost of the upgrade would probably not make sense.
 
Unless the full charged voltage of the new battery pack changed, the existing infrastructure should work just fine! It would take longer to fully charge the pack with the existing on-board charging circuits, and upgrading that would be a MAJOR update, but just new batteries, not a big deal. The logic may not give the proper miles to empty, but if it was an approved upgrade, that software could easily be tweaked, too. Keep in mind that most EVSE's out there aren't typically bigger than that in the i3, and most cars have a smaller on-board charging. CCS units, that's another story.

Double the capacity, double the charging time, but other than that...I'd expect if a newer vehicle had significantly larger battery capacity, they may include a larger on-board charging circuit, but that starts to get counterproductive since it would then require bigger wiring, and all of the support hardware...the added weight and costs may not make it worthwhile, and they keep the same charging circuit. Time will tell.
 
Why would BMW want to sell you a battery upgrade instead of a new car? The OEM battery supplier might want to offer an improved replacement, but I am sure there is a clause in the contract that prevents direct sales in competition with BMW. Such thing has never been offered by any car maker in the past, I cannot see why one would start now, especially since they will have plenty of demand for new improved models off the showroom floor. Why waste the battery manufacturing capacity just to sell batteries as opposed to new cars and leave all that sweet, sweet profit on the table?
 
Very true that it is more profitable to sell new cars than batteries. Even if upgrades are offered, I bet most i3 owners would get a new car. This is because there are few i3 purchases with probably around 90% leasing. If you can turn the car in, why not just get the new model?

On the other hand, the used car market is very important to dealers and they have invested a lot in it with their various leasing schemes. Why would BMW let end-of-lease i3s just become spare parts / recycled when they can get new batteries and a new life? Perhaps economics will be in favour of the former though I doubt it. Knowing i3s have no market second-hand value would be bad for future sales. BMW, OFFER AN UPGRADE!!

The battery upgrade question is largely for those who bought their i3 - with faith in BMWs ability to offer an upgrade over the long haul. These are guys who did not cut their losses by doing a lease deal but chose to stick it out. BMW should not ignore this group. It could be bad for credibility and reputation of EVs. Unfortunately, given their small number, I wouldn't be surprised if BMW does ignore "buyers" request for an upgrade and simply offer a lucrative "buy-back and get new car" scheme.
 
WoodlandHills said:
Why would BMW want to sell you a battery upgrade instead of a new car?
Simple - failure to offer a battery upgrade would be totally at odds with the eco positioning of the BMWi products, so if BMW don't offer an upgrade in due course, they'll have to eat their PR words about recyclability and a purpose built eco friendly plant.
 
I hear what everybody is saying re "selling cars is more profitable than replacing batteries". But let's not forget that this car is supposed to be -in more than one or two ways- a departure from the existing manufacturing and sales paradigms.

I can imagine that BMW will approach me in 3 years time and give me a choice between

1. a new "i5" with 150-200 miles electric range at £40,000 and part-ex my i3 or
2. an i3 battery upgrade for £8,000, boosting the car to 125-150 miles electric

And then, we might all be wrong. ;)
 
Well... I have to agree that market is generally changing with EVs, it will never be the same as used to be for ICE. And why should BMW offer upgrade? First competition does, second ecology footprint. It will still take some time to settle down, but look, we still have new batteries now :)

Ad leasing: not outside US, European i3 drivers are mostly owners and BMW is home here, remember?

Ad ease of replacement: the tricky part is same voltage of new batteries - ongoing research for high nominal density and power leads propably to higher cell voltage and this MAY be a complication. I suppose, there will be AT LEAST aftermarket 3rd party option for i3 in the future, but not sooner than 3 to 4 years.
 
If you ask 20 BMW executives to comment on this you'll get 20 different answers. Partly from different perspectives and opinions and partly because they are purposefully obfuscating the truth so the competition doesn't get any insight into what they are working on. As others mentioned, it's ridiculous to say "Batteries bonded to the chassis" present a problem. Any BMW service center can drop the i3's battery pack and replace it with a new one (that could as well have higher density cells) in less than one day.

I've personally talked to BMW EV program managers that have referenced how the replacement pack available in 4 or 5 years will be less expensive, lighter and have higher energy density cells than the current one does.
 
When I ordered my i3 (Feb 2014) I specifically asked about battery replacement. I was told then that it would be very difficult as they were bonded into the chassis and that BMW were planning to offer enhanced trade ins after 3-5 Years for people wanting to upgrade to a new car, I did take that with a large pinch of salt.
 
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