Basic Physics...

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jadnashuanh

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Once you're exhausted the i3's batteries, what you are left with on a REx, regardless of when you turned it on, is a 34Hp engine which needs to convert that rotational energy into EMF to move the vehicle...Hp is Hp, whether you express it in Kw or whatever. When you have essentially no usable charge left in the batteries, you're relying on whatever you can produce from the REx, and if you are trying to use more than it can provide, it will not go very fast unless you can keep it running and build back up a buffer in the batteries.

IF your energy use is less than the REx output, you may never notice any degradation in performance, but you have to keep the SOC above a certain point, or you'll lose some of the creature comforts.

Plain facts. When was the last time you drove a car with a 34Hp motor? That's something like one of the original VW Bugs, or a Citroen 2CV...unless you have some battery buffer left, that's what you have left on the i3 REx once the batteries are depleted. Believe me, they can't keep any decent speed going up a long grade. To expect something else is just wishful thinking. Now, if you have enough buffer in the batteries, you can use all of the creature comforts and the full power of the electric motor, but it's not a perpetual motion machine, you cannot get more out of it than you put in, and that's limited to the 34Hp. Now, BMW may choose to run that little motor harder, and are known for understating the power outputs of many of their engines, but there's a limit on how much you can produce before you exceed the design limits and produce too much heat, or wear, or noise, or fuel consumption to make it all worthwhile, and there's a limit on how much you can produce with the supplied generator.

I like the i3, and if my needs required the REx, I'd have one rather than my BEV, but I'd have to think long and hard over whether that would be better than an ICE. Europe has a lot more choices on cars of the i3's size, and some of them are very efficient. The electric motor provides a neat kick in the butt, but it may not be the best vehicle for your needs.
 
Very well put.

And you touched on the fact that running on REx alone is not very efficient!
You're talking about 33.5 mpg (7 L/100), which is not at all great for such a light car.
So it's just not a good choice for highway driving longer than 70 miles or so.

So for me, I'm going with the BEV. The REx really offers very little real benefit, besides a psychological insurance policy. You would have to drive longer than 70 but less than 140 miles (roughly) per trip, for the REx to make real sense.

Further, what that mental insurance does is encourage you to drive less efficiently, which kind of defeats the purpose of being an i3 driver, doesn't it!
 
The i3 REx does have limits, but then every car does. I purchased the REx option because I wasn't ready to accept the strict limits of a BEV. It turns out the REx is a little more limited than I though, not that it let me down it the one test I made. It is annoying that BWM placed more limits on the REx for the NA market to satisfy CARB.

From an article last October BMW said "i3 users would see virtually no difference in performance between battery and gasoline operation. Even during a 12-mile uphill grade of 5 percent at highway speeds with four people in the car, he said, passengers wouldn’t notice any difference in performance."

Maybe the problem only comes in at greater than 5% grades. The maximum on US interstates is generally 6 or 7%, so the above quote isn't completely reassuring. The ability to switch the REx on early would allow us to take on long steep hills easily with a bit of planning.
 
KurtEndress said:
From an article last October BMW said "i3 users would see virtually no difference in performance between battery and gasoline operation. Even during a 12-mile uphill grade of 5 percent at highway speeds with four people in the car, he said, passengers wouldn’t notice any difference in performance."
I guess it all depends on what speed that really is...and, where the SOC was when you started.
 
Surge said:
Very well put.
So for me, I'm going with the BEV. The REx really offers very little real benefit, besides a psychological insurance policy. You would have to drive longer than 70 but less than 140 miles (roughly) per trip, for the REx to make real sense.
You can stretch that a little if you are willing to stop for fuel. I have a 140 there/143 mile back trip I do every other weekend. I might just make it without stopping - but no worries there's about 2 dozen petrol stations and now 2 CCS chargers on my way (6 within a few months).

I'd want to make sure I have more than enough fuel in the car to not have to worry if the battery runs down near the end despite the REX being activated. That might mean running the tank empty to start, stopping to top off the fuel (from a jerry can), then running the battery down. I can wait till I get home and stick it on a 240V slow charge over night on a Sunday, but on the way back up on a Friday need the car charged for getting out and about, so would leave the REX on a little longer, and will also have the fast charger.

Sad thing is I heard they will be charging £7.50 for a CCS charge! At that price I'll just delete the DC Charging option and stick with the REX.

What amusing/frustrating is the car is meant to be a predominately BEV not a hybrid - so having to get a jerry can seems a backwards step, but only to save me from having to visit petrol station more than I do now... despite using a lot less fuel.
 
nowtta60 said:
Surge said:
Sad thing is I heard they will be charging £7.50 for a CCS charge! At that price I'll just delete the DC Charging option and stick with the REX.
Yes it will be sad when Ecotricity start charging the going rate for CCS charges, but it's still cheap:

a CCS charge at £7.50 giving 65 miles per charge = 11.5p/mile
a CCS charge at £7.50 giving 70 miles per charge = 10.7p/mile
a CCS charge at £7.50 giving 80 miles per charge = 9.3p/mile
a CCS charge at £7.50 giving 90 miles per charge = 8.3p/mile

a Type 2/ Economy 7 home charge giving 85 miles = 1.9p/mile
a Type 2 / day rate home charge giving 85 miles = 4.5p/mile

... but Diesel at £1.319/litre and 52 mpg = 11.5p/mile
(and yes, we have the second most expensive diesel in the world!)
 
I'm sure BMW engineers understand "Basic Physics," but BMW business people lack "Common Sense." IMHO, the car is dangerous without a "Mountain Mode" AND clear driver warnings. The car knows, at a minimum, when the extrapolated rate of SOC depletion will soon result in extreme degradation in power. A little notice would be nice. Soccer moms are not going to drive around focusing on the relation of the little blue bar and the little white arrow. The status quo for US cars is outrageous.

For me, I bought the REX i3 full full knowledge that it was not a "road trip" car, but with the expectation that I would have no "Range Anxiety." I want to be able to drive how I want (not very ECO friendly, to be honest) on battery and not have to fear REX mode. I'm totally OK with driving more moderately in REX mode, but don't want to ever experience my 25MPH limping again.

BMW advertises this car as the first EV that drives like a BMW. I just want to be able to drive it like a BMW without fear.
 
Chrisn said:
I'm sure BMW engineers understand "Basic Physics," but BMW business people lack "Common Sense." IMHO, the car is dangerous without a "Mountain Mode" AND clear driver warnings. The car knows, at a minimum, when the extrapolated rate of SOC depletion will soon result in extreme degradation in power. A little notice would be nice. Soccer moms are not going to drive around focusing on the relation of the little blue bar and the little white arrow. The status quo for US cars is outrageous.

For me, I bought the REX i3 full full knowledge that it was not a "road trip" car, but with the expectation that I would have no "Range Anxiety." I want to be able to drive how I want (not very ECO friendly, to be honest) on battery and not have to fear REX mode. I'm totally OK with driving more moderately in REX mode, but don't want to ever experience my 25MPH limping again.

BMW advertises this car as the first EV that drives like a BMW. I just want to be able to drive it like a BMW without fear.

I guess it is in what you expect. My BEV drives "just like a BMW", as long as I stay within the design parameters......
 
kevinb61 said:
I guess it is in what you expect. My BEV drives "just like a BMW", as long as I stay within the design parameters......

I guess it is in how you define "design parameters" (for the REX). If you mean the engineers' original design, then I agree with you. If you mean the changes from the BMW business folks and CARB, I would beg to differ.
 
People need a more enlightened mindset. If you continue to drive your ICE when the fuel gauge has long since bumped off the empty peg, and it starts to cough as it runs out of fuel, would you call that dangerous? The battery level indication is plainly shown on the i3...and, just like on your ICE, eking out that last mile before things die has issues. Most people refuel their ICE shortly after the low fuel warning comes on if not before, and before it gets to the E mark...you should do the same thing with your i3 as your power level drops close to zero range. The difference is, it will take longer on the i3 to shut itself down as it dies, but the principle is the same. Trying to get that last one percent of range out of the thing is like playing Russian roulette. At least on the i3 as it starts to die, it will keep going long enough to let you pull over before you stop dead - and the steering and brakes will still work fine...something your ICE may not do after the engine has died.
 
jadnashuanh said:
Trying to get that last one percent of range out of the thing is like playing Russian roulette.


Umm.. my window sticker shows ~50% of total range coming from the REX. I am not trying to get the last 1%-- just some of the "other half" of my total range. I reject your analogy.
 
At 100km/h (62mph) the i3 BEV creates 326 Newtons of drag. The REX model a little more at 336 Newtons.

More meaningful to the average punter is BHP absorbed by drag. Here we are not considering the drag from the drive-train / single gear or tyre friction and this is for a flat road with nil wind.

At 40 mph the i3 consumes a minimum of 3.33 BHP (2.5kW) in drag alone. Not a lot! But accelerate to 60 mph and it goes up a factor of 4 to 12.5BHP (9.317kW). Get on the freeway in Montana or de-restricted Autobahn and at 93 mph the i3 requires 42.14 BHP (31.44 kW)!

So if the REX puts out (in high rev mode above 56mph) 34 bhp with minimum SOC, it's clear it will not overcome aerodynamic drag at high freeways speeds with 0% gradient.

It is all about energy required and energy available. The i3 has to use the battery/motor set up to drive the wheels so you may find you cannot access that ICE bhp under the conditions described. This was also reported last year by the UK's telegraph newspaper in a non US i3 REX.

PS: At 60mph, the all aluminium 2001 Audi A2 1.2 tdi creates a mere 257 Newtons and weighs in at 850kg (2.88l/100km diesel). The i3 has the same Cd as a 1990s Toyota Camry.
 
ecoangel said:
But accelerate to 60 mph and it goes up a factor of 4 to 12.5BHP (9.317kW). Get on the freeway in Montana or de-restricted Autobahn and at 93 mph the i3 requires 42.14 BHP (31.44 kW)!

LOL...yep, it was designed to do 93 (I know you are not saying it is. Personally it's more amazing that it will do >90). I have had my BEV up to 82 (to pass someone), but I will stick to my Z4 for the high-speed stuff.

For everything there has to be compromises (can't be the most "fuel" efficient production car in the world without them). Seems like the REX'ers should just understand that at times, they may have to actually just do speed limits (or maybe God-forbid, a little slower). I have on longer trips set my i3 BEV to 65mph (speed limit, and we know BMW speedos are mostly wrong, so I am actually going a little slower), to make sure I keep a little headroom on my range. Personally, I am not "pissed" that I can't drive it 75mi at 75mph in comfort mode, with the Harmon-Kardon sound system blaring. I agree that people need to do research, and dealers need to assess customer needs to make sure the vehicle can reasonably fit the bill.
 
I'm not pissed at Isaac Newton, I'm pissed at BMW for crippling the REX mode. Big difference.

Isaac says I can't cruise at 80MPH in REX mode. No problem. But BMW says I can't control when battery is used to maximizing my comfort/safety/convenience (without burning a drop of extra gas). No engineer would design the car this way and, in fact, no engineer ever did....
 
The REX implementation for the USA is flawed for whatever reason. I don't know why anyone concerned about performance would buy one.
 
uktechie said:
The REX implementation for the USA is flawed for whatever reason. I don't know why anyone concerned about performance would buy one.

For me, the car is perfect for 90% of my driving AND I have other cars I can use for the 10%, so the REX flaws can mostly be worked around-- especially as I learn the car (with help form info shared here-- thanks!). For me, on balance, I think I can still live with the car--- but I've only had it for four days, so I'm not 100% sure about that yet.

Also, in fairness, it's not a "performance issue" in the general sense, as I find it plenty zippy and fun to drive 100% of the time on EV and most of the time on REX (and I have other cars with > 500HP). It's really just the SOC buffer management on REX that is the problem.

I'm an American. I am allowed to bitch about stuff that I chose to buy with my eyes open. :D
 
Chrisn said:
uktechie said:
The REX implementation for the USA is flawed for whatever reason. I don't know why anyone concerned about performance would buy one.
It's really just the SOC buffer management on REX that is the problem.

That is what I meant, how about finding someone to hack this restriction?
 
Chrisn said:
I'm pissed at BMW for crippling the REX mode. ... No engineer would design the car this way and, in fact, no engineer ever did....
Other than some stylists and designers that handled how things looked, everything about this car was designed by engineers. Engineers work from requirements, and there was, no doubt, some upset engineers over some of the i3 US requirements. The requirements are negotiated from marketing, finance, manufacturing, testing, engineering and others to satisfy top-level goals and to comply with rules and regulations (and physics!).

Chrisn, perhaps BMW should have blown off the CARB regulations, and lost emission credits that would have resulted in additional expenses. Perhaps they figured that in order to meet the required investment needs without the emission credits, prices on the i3 and other BMW products would have to go up such that sales would be harmed enough that the i3 would no longer be a viable product. We don't know what they were willing to compromise on the i3 requirements, but it is very possible that to give you what you want in an i3 would have killed the project altogether. You may have every right to be pissed, but it sure seems that you are misdirecting a lot of your anger at windmills.

May I suggest that what may be more productive for you is to avoid denigrating the product that you should be trying to sell at a minimum loss. This is not a good fit for your needs, and it is highly unlikely that you will get BMW to change it (retroactively to your car) to better meet your needs and thereby forfeiting the extremely valuable CARB credits. I can't image any judge or jury awarding you any damages against BMW for selling you a "Megacity" electric car that will not perform very well in inter-city mountain climbing. Perhaps BMW may agree to very favorable trade allowance or some such compensation for your situation. However, bitching about it publicly is more likely to work against your (and all i3 owners), whether for direct compensation from BMW or your dealer or for resale value.
 
i3Alan: I hear you. I was honestly shocked at what I experienced and wanted to share my facts with others. I thought that was what the Interwebs were for.

I agree with most of what you've said. At a minimum, BMW should patch software to warn of impending power loss.

I'll likely keep the car, even with undisclosed warts. Other may feel differently, but all should have the facts before buying.

The cosmically "right" solution is for the CARB folks to relent in their irrational position and allow BMW to patch the car while retaining their precious credits. But, as a consumer, I am entitled to take the position of "not my problem" even while acknowledging the business/political/engineering realities described in your post.

Finally, despite being the "victim" of unreasonable regulatory discretion, BMW's hands are dirty here too. I don't see BMW disclosing candidly that "Warning: if you live in SF Bay Area, you can't take this car on round trip to the beach" (or the equivalent). BMW argued that they needed the "Hold Charge" mode to deliver a fully functional product. They (wrongly) lost that fight and are now changing their tune....
 
Chrisn said:
jadnashuanh said:
Trying to get that last one percent of range out of the thing is like playing Russian roulette.


Umm.. my window sticker shows ~50% of total range coming from the REX. I am not trying to get the last 1%-- just some of the "other half" of my total range. I reject your analogy.

I agree, I put down my nonrefundable deposit back when officials at BMW NA were saying you could drive the car i3 rex from coast to coast without any problem.
 
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