WoodlandHills
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:52 am

janner wrote:In this interim upgrade for the i3 it seems to me that 30% range increase would be most likely giving something like 105 miles (90-120).
I sure would not want to try to sell a 105 mile $45k+ i3 in a world of $30k to $35k Teslas and Chevys with 175 to 200 mile ranges.
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psquare
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:06 am

WoodlandHills wrote: I sure would not want to try to sell a 105 mile $45k+ i3 in a world of $30k to $35k Teslas and Chevys with 175 to 200 mile ranges.
Don't worry, nobody is interested in living in your world either. :lol:

jadnashuanh
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:16 am

Whether Tesla can pull it off is yet to be seen. The model X was supposed to cost much less than its current out the door price. Nobody 'needs' to spend the money for a 'luxury' car, but many do, partly for the status, partly for the technology, and for many other reasons. If all you want to do is get from point A to point B...there are lots of other reliable cars out there. There will always be a market for a 'luxury' version of things. The build technique of the i3 is such that, a recognized engineering firm that tore one down to analyze, concluded that making more than 50K/year of them would be uneconomical. IOW, BMW never planned to build huge quantities of them. The technique they used on the new 7-series, though, via the larger expected volume, justified the expenditure of a different technique. I think the next I-car from BMW will anticipate larger volumes, since a larger car with anticipated longer range and more carrying capacity will not follow the exact same CFRP tub technique, but still be lighter than normal cars of its size for efficiency. FWIW, I'm not a fan of Tesla's huge quantities of small batteries in their pack...lots of opportunities for failure. Balancing them all is tough. How well they'll perform after say 8-years will maybe be a shock to those that then need to replace them to maintain decent range. But, then, people that tend to have a car like that don't keep it that long, but the secondary market will suffer.

Lots of doom and gloom from some people. I do not see BMW folding as a company or from their commitment to making good EV's and hybrids. If what they provide suits your needs and your pocketbook, you'll buy it, but a lone voice is not a chorus, and that's what matters in the long run.
Jim DeBruycker
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janner
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:16 pm

Munro said, on their teardown, that they would expect BMW to make money on more than 20,000 units.
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Jeffj
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:55 pm

I interpreted the teardown comments on cost as indicating the methodology BMW chose works well up to ~50,000 units, but above that, it gets too expensive. In other words, they chose low startup costs (e.g. no major tooling), but high incremental manufacturing costs. Above 50,000 units, they would want to invest in the tooling to reduce the manufacturing costs on a per unit basis (high startup costs, but low incremental manufacturing costs).

jadnashuanh
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:14 pm

As I said...BMW did not expect to sell more than 50K units/year of the i3. If they had, they'd have built it differently. I expect something larger, designed for long-range capability, world-wide could require a greater volume, and therefore a different build methodology. It works and does what they expected. I would hope that the next, larger, longer-range EV they build will also work and perform as they expect. If their expectation is a lower volume, then maybe the basic structure of the next one will be similar to the i3's, but my guess is that it will be more in line with that used on the 7-series.

Higher power density batteries could mean fewer of them to save weight which would increase range just from that, verses adding range by keeping the same volume. IOW, they could keep the battery pack capacity the same on the next i3, and gain that range just from weight loss. Keeping the volume the same could add more range, though, and could be the plan.
Jim DeBruycker
2014 i3 BEV, 2021 X5 45e
(The i3 will be sold soon, <17K-miles, interested?)

websterize
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:20 am

Hopefully, we'll learn more on Thursday, when the Tokyo Motor Show begins.
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janner
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:55 am

Posted on BMWi3.blogspot.co.uk

BMW CEO Harold Krueger in an interview with Die Zeit recently said this about the topic:

“Battery cell technology continues to evolve. The range of the i3 will be increased in 2016. A further technological improvement is to be expected in three or four years: Then you’ll be able to go twice as far on a single charge without any further increase in the weight of the battery."

Alongside this was a Samsung technology roadmap showing an advanced LI Battery in 2016 but with the same 130Wh/kg as existing. Also shown for 2019 was 'Innovative LIB' at 250Wh/kg which if all else was equal would mean about 155 miles for BEV (or 138 miles electric for ReX and, one assumes, a bigger tank fuel tank, meaning 276miles total).

For me the 2019 battery looks near perfect.
2015 i3 ReX Solar Orange, Loft interior world. BMW professional, 19" turbine-spoke 429 wheels, DC rapid charging, driving assistant plus.

jadnashuanh
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:49 am

An interesting aside to that, if they do not increase the capacity of the on-board charging circuits, that also means nearly double the charging time on an EVSE. Increased capacity there, more heat generated, bigger cooling system, etc., which means it may not be bigger, which would add weight (not from the batteries, but the support equipment if the charging circuits got bigger). CCS charging would still be reasonably fast, but still longer. Very few things in life are free. Most EVSE's out there are barely able to max out the i3 now, and larger ones are not likely to become really common. CCS units, the same thing, few out there have excess capacity - IOW, the i3 now is using them to their fullest capacity for the most part.
Jim DeBruycker
2014 i3 BEV, 2021 X5 45e
(The i3 will be sold soon, <17K-miles, interested?)

janner
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Re: BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:42 pm

Some good points, Jim.

It's quite interesting what the BMW R&D guy said last weekend - he said that the i3 battery size was what it was because that's what you could charge overnight at 10 amps.

I guess, by next year, or certainly by 2019, most will have level 2 chargers which means home charging of 36kWHrs will be OK overnight.

As far as CCS goes (50kW), my current charge rate is a little less than 1 kWHr/min for the first 70% (15 minutes) and a little less than 0.5kWHr/min for the next 20% (8 minutes). I would expect the larger battery to achieve the first 70% (24kWHrs) in just less than 30 mins but the next 20% (7kWHrs) to be around 10 minutes only so 90% in 40 minutes rather than 90% in 23 minutes. As you said, it's about twice the charge time; it's limited by 50kW DC.

(Tesla supercharger (120kW) achieves the first 50% (40kWHrs) in about 30 minutes - 1.3kWHr/min.)
2015 i3 ReX Solar Orange, Loft interior world. BMW professional, 19" turbine-spoke 429 wheels, DC rapid charging, driving assistant plus.

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