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Kiwi

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
80
Location
Auckland
With the amount of long range battery Ev's being launched with great designs like the new Jaguar I Pace with a range of 480k who would pay the large dollars BMW requires for a very out of date BMW i3
 
Jaguar iPace might be good, but starting price in Aussie is $119k plus options. It will be nearly the double cost of the i3 and it is more on the Tesla lead than the i3. Won't be as economical as the i3 either.
 
IMO, the i3 is one and done, in that after the normal 7 year cycle, there will be no more new i3's, for the reasons you mention. But, there will be other electrified BMWs, like the Mini, X3, 3 series to name a few. The i3 is good for it's intended purpose...a city car. Seems that most people want a dual purpose car, city and long range.
 
For those of us who don't need long range, who tend to keep cars for many years, and who want a compact, light, hatchback, rear-wheel-drive, rust-free EV, the i3 has no competition yet. In a few months, a 120 Ah (~44 kWh) i3 will be available with range that will satisfy even more potential EV drivers. I certainly don't consider our 2014 BEV "very out of date".
 
Both Toyota and BMW performed studies on the "average" commute and built their car's ranges accordingly. No comment as to whether their findings were right or wrong with the Prius Prime and BMW i3 respectively, but there was some logic on their end in their minds. Many of us may be far from the "average" for our commutes so it's irrelevant.

What's happening though is that the Tesla brand attracted people into the EV scene who really don't have any place being an owner. As a result, the demand for a 150mi range and now 200mi range is just an arbitrary number. Most people won't be driving that number of miles in a single day with round trip commutes for work and soccer mom/dad errands. "People" don't want to compromise and are thinking it's logical to just want to plug their EV in only as often as they get gas. Most of us will know that's just silly, but regardless, the demand is still there for long range EV's.

As long as long range EV's keep getting produced and people who think they actually need/want one end up getting them, the inventory of low range EV's which in fact may be perfect for a larger group of people than who are willing to admit, the prices drop like rocks. So this is perfect for those of us who realize our needs for the range of an EV to be under 100mi per charge.

So I'm not complaining. I hope that more and more people demand larger and larger batteries and pay higher and higher dollars so that I can buy them second hand at steep discounts.

Until the public realizes that they don't need and don't want to pay for more range than they will actually use (which I don't actually anticipate happening anytime soon, especially with the continuing mentality of more is better), the prices of low range EV's (anything under 100mi range) will drop bigly. I do think the sweet spot is the 2015 i3 REX's, particularly now with the high inventory due to lease returns. If you can find something under $22k that has the "world" you want and has the packages you want with miles under 20k, you're in good shape.

The demand for these low range EV's is dropping like a rock b/c people (at least for now) think they need/want the long range stuff. I don't expect to see a drop in 2018+ BMW i3's like we've experienced with the 2015's. People will still find 150mi a compromise (compared to their gas vehicles with 300+ mile "range"), but they won't laugh at it like they do the earlier 60ah battery ones. And as battery prices drop, the manufactures have no choice but to extend the savings to us. I could be wrong, but I do think there's a cap at the upcoming BMW i3 with 150-155mi range. The current 2018 one tops off at around $61k. Can BMW really charge $65k or more for an even longer range EV? At some point people will be buying two stripped down Tesla Model 3's instead of a single BMW i3.

Those of us who recently purchased an i3 or who are looking to buy one should be very happy that some people think "the i3 is over."
 
Not everyone will have access to DC fast charging, and if they actually need a long range for their normal operations, they may find that they cannot fully recharge overnight! It's not like you can stop at any gas station and refill in minutes (yet!).

None of the manufacturers have taken the time to educate people on BEV operations, and even plug-in hybrids education is lacking. People that think they can just run their new Tesla model 3's battery down, plug it in at home, and expect it to be fully ready in any reasonable time will be in for a surprise. This is true for many of the longer range vehicles.

Throw in that not everyone has enough excess power panel capacity to even max out an EVSE for their vehicle, and that can be a problem, too. Many of the available CCS units are as small as 25Kw, some are 50Kw, the Tesla superchargers are in flux, but around 120Kw is their max. There's a new standard for CCS units that could reach as high as 350Kw, but except one or two in Germany, I don't think there are any around, and none of the current EVs can use them, either (Porsche is using one to test their prototype). Some of the public EVSEs out there are only in the 25A range at 208vac, too. On a large battery, maybe a day to recharge!

Our current federal government is not really helping the future of EVs with fast charging. Tesla has the right idea, but still, the units have a long ways to go to become as convenient as filling up a gas tank.

If we ever get to the point of electric roadways, EVs will be everywhere, and battery size won't be a major issue since you'll charge from the roadway or maybe wirelessly over the air. Maybe by then, we'll have flying cars...IOW, don't hold your breath!

There will always be a place for a shorter range EV, it's just getting people to recognize the fact that they may be a candidate is tough. Batteries will tend to get lighter and have higher storage capacity, but weight is a major component of your maximum range...you cannot overcome the physics of starting and stopping extra mass - it takes energy, and recovery is never going to be super efficient (it could be better, but that also adds to the costs).

Saving weight is an issue, and big batteries doesn't help.
 
480k battery is over the top for most. What is required is a 300k true range for trips to out of town favourite Sunday lunch stops

Is EV batteries going to be larger versions of iPhone batteries which could degrade faster than we believe. Our fuel savings maybe eaten up with having to replace there batteries. Some say sell the cars early but the price will be subject to the life left in the battery. I'm still a big believer in hybrid plugins. Battery replacements will be a lot cheaper than full battery only cars. My hybrid plugin is achieving 80% battery milage after 20 months of ownership.

BMW X3ev is going to be a lot more expensive than an i3. BMW should be using the X1 or Active Tourer as their first fully battery EV. This will bring it to more buyers. Mini as well will also be expensive. BMW New Zealand has only planned on selling 25 i3's a year and to me BMW is only playing with batteries and have no real plan on selling EV's main stream to BMW buyers.
 
Kiwi said:
With the amount of long range battery Ev's being launched with great designs like the new Jaguar I Pace with a range of 480k who would pay the large dollars BMW requires for a very out of date BMW i3

The "i" division of BMW was only meant to be a test platform for the future of electrifying their entire line up of cars.

I say it has been a success, and hopefully they have learned enough to fully incorporate other cars as EVs.

Comparing an i3 to a much more expensive, more range I Pace is like comparing a Toyota Corolla to a BMW 3 series.
 
ASUN said:
Kiwi said:
With the amount of long range battery Ev's being launched with great designs like the new Jaguar I Pace with a range of 480k who would pay the large dollars BMW requires for a very out of date BMW i3

The "i" division of BMW was only meant to be a test platform for the future of electrifying their entire line up of cars.

I say it has been a success, and hopefully they have learned enough to fully incorporate other cars as EVs.

Comparing an i3 to a much more expensive, more range I Pace is like comparing a Toyota Corolla to a BMW 3 series.

Once you get up into the i3 money it doesn't take much to throw another 50k into the pot.

A black i3 was in town today and I still like the i3 design. I would never buy a Jaguar just throwing some discussions in. BMW is the only vehicles we purchase and we have 3 BMW Motor Sports in the garage.
 
Kiwi said:
Once you get up into the i3 money it doesn't take much to throw another 50k into the pot.

Even in NZD that's a lot! :shock:

Not trying to argue with you, but that made no sense to an average consumer like me...
 
ASUN said:
Kiwi said:
Once you get up into the i3 money it doesn't take much to throw another 50k into the pot.

Even in NZD that's a lot! :shock:

Not trying to argue with you, but that made no sense to an average consumer like me...

The i3 price is not for the average consumer as its 3 times the price. You have to be earning good money to throw coin on purchasing an i3 and if your are earning good money then finding some more doesn't take forever.
 
I think that the range of an EV is used to mislead consumers into thinking more is better, when in fact more range comes at the price of increased weight from greater battery capacity. Bigger is not always better - a lighter vehicle has performance and efficiency advantages over a heavier one. You need to understand what your needs are between charging opportunities vs. thinking about how often you needed to fill up with gas when you owned an ICE car.

The i3 was conceived to be the ultimate city car - a premium small hatchback that is nimble in traffic, is light and accelerates ahead of other cars from a standstill, is very manoeuvrable with a small turning circle, short and easy to park, and can make u-turns easily so that you can grab that parking spot on the other side of the street. I love driving the i3 in the city and will never go back to an ICE vehicle. And it is quiet inside so conversation is easier, with better music sound quality as you don't have to play over the noise of an ICE.

Range is more than adequate for most city drivers. I do not need to charge it daily, but only at most 2-3 times per week - and I drive it daily as it is my only car. It is the perfect fit for my needs. I have the REX for those occasional trips out of town. If the range was 300-400km the REX would no longer be needed, and maybe we will see that in the coming years when battery capacity will increase without added weight.

One thing about the i3 is that it is a concept car that went into production as a concept car. There is a lot of innovative engineering that went into to and that I am sure is trickling into other BMWs and will do so for many years. I saw an interview with Munro and Associates where Mr Munro estimated that there was $2.7B of R&D that went into the i3, from developling new adhesives and composites to chassis design etc. He called it the Model T of our generation.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to say the i3 is the model T of our generation. The model T was the first mass produced car and because of that it was relatively inexpensive, so lots of people could buy them. Not so with the i3. Elon Musk hopes the Tesla 3 will be like that.
 
I think about the calculus that I would do if I was buying a new EV and the dealer said... "how much battery do you want ? It's $X/mile range."

If I could buy as much as I wanted, I don't think I'd buy much over 100 miles, 150 max. Especially if I had the REX. Now, without that, I still think 150 miles would be good enough. I live in Houston, and there is no CCS on the way to Austin, Dallas, or San Antonio. If there was, and I expect there to be some in the next 3 years, then I figure that I'd be good with 150 miles. At some point, its just extra weight that you tote around and never use. e.g., I explain it as .... "would you want a 200 gallon gas tank in your corrolla ?" Think about how far you would tote that last 10 gallons that you'd never, ever, use."

I DID buy a 2015 Rex I3 for $21k, with 13,000 miles and all the goodies. I love it, and it now has almost 19,000 miles on it, since October. Only 4 gallons of gas burned so far.
 
An EV takes a certain mindset that not all people have nor are the dealers or ads helping to promote what it is. I use my i3 as intended, and do not expect it to be one car for all purposes, and just like a pair of pliers, often, the proper wrench works better, but will work in a pinch. The REx helps in that analogy, but is still a pair of pliers! If you expect your EV to operate the same as an ICE, you'll be dissatisfied. Range is the biggest issue when long distances are involved, but the EV is not (right now) the best tool for the job.

As the batteries get more energy dense and the price comes down, along with faster charging (the allure of solid state batteries is so tempting!), but the tech is still evolving.

Sure, for the same price and weight, I'd like more battery power, but it wasn't a problem for me when I bought mine shortly after they were introduced in the USA, and it still isn't. It fit my use case. It may not fit yours. The worst thing is to find that after you bought it. Most people do not really know what they need, but are swayed by what they want.
 
The way BMW is going with its up coming new I cars the i3 may be cheap buying. I do think trump could turn the whole EV market on i's head if he lowers miles per gallon consumption .
 
The battery is the heart of the EV, and so far to date has always been the limiting technology for an EV.
Bigger battery has so many advantages over the smaller counterparts.
e.g. Bigger batteries can sustain higher charge and discharge rates continuously . Even in a Tesla , when stretched to limits, the battery will overheat.
as i learned , in i3 64h , to keep the discharge C rate ideal , the car shroud not be continuously be driven above 74 Miles.
In 2017 i3 90h , it goes up to 84h , due to lager battery.
But when climbing up hill, as i do occasionally , battery is always the most limiting factor , it starts to loose SoC much faster with increased discharge rate.

The faster u drive or charge or accelerate , the bigger battery helps.
and i got a EV, as i do like to drive it fast.....
If u drive slow, u r good to go with smaller....
 
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