Quit following - start leading

BMW, you are playing catch up in EVs. You need to run faster and get out in front. Case in point:
http://9to5mac.com/2014/08/20/tesla...without-keyfobs-with-v6-0-update/#more-336883

As BMW customers we've always felt we were with a leading edge company, now not so much.

The i8 is nice, with drop dead gorgeous styling. But at about a 50% price premium, and with two power plants and enormously more complexity, it's still slower than a Tesla P85 from 0-60.

Software is a serious weak point in the BMW-i product line, see the many threads on problems with the app.

Quit following - start leading!

Each manufacturer has strengths and weaknesses. Its not altogether surprising that Tesla are good at software given their background.

That said BMW is leading in lightweight materials, efficiency, recycled materials and less energy intensive production. Arguably in design innovation too, although its a matter of opinion.

No one maker leads in all fields.

The ability to start via app seems little more than a party trick to me and might raise security issues too? Software updates via wifi however is much more beneficial.

electricvirgin said:

BMW is leading in lightweight materials, efficiency, recycled materials and less energy intensive production. Arguably in design innovation too, although its a matter of opinion.

No one maker leads in all fields.

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Well said! +1

As regards the i8 the price differential in the uk is more like 30% more for the i8 not 50%.

Furthermore the performance difference is 0.3 seconds which i would suggest is insignificant, however i would be surprised if the Tesla was faster on real roads involving corners.

Finally coupe's and sports cars have traditionally been dearer and more exclusive than conventional saloons (sedans?) and while the Tesla is not an unattractive car i am in little doubt most would find the i8 a great deal more visually appealing. I always find the Tesla looks a little too like a large Vauxhall Insignia for my liking, nevertheless i am sure its a terrific car.

Really the cars are utterly different and aimed at completely different customers, i would not be surprised if some lucky people had both though! An E Class Mercedes AMG can go faster than some Porsche 911's, i know which i would prefer to drive though.

All good points. But if we cut to the chase, who is setting the bar by which EVs are measured? Which manufacturer, not which car.

I assert it's Tesla. BMW and Mercedes are playing catch up.

But I'm hoping my i3 won't be instantly "yesterday's car" when Tesla announces the Model III so I'd like BMW to get busy with some serious software updates. The i3 could nicely enhanced without changing the hardware. But that's the subject of another thread.

Can't agree with that. I like the Teslas and hope they do well and last, but the prime goal for electric vehicles has to be efficiency. The i3 wipes Tesla off the page.

I'm hoping Tesla lifts their game and pares down the weight of their vehicles and improves their electrical economy.

I33t said:

Can't agree with that. I like the Teslas and hope they do well and last, but the prime goal for electric vehicles has to be efficiency. The i3 wipes Tesla off the page.

I'm hoping Tesla lifts their game and pares down the weight of their vehicles and improves their electrical economy.

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You may feel that BMW selected exactly the right combination of features in the tradeoff between features, range and weight, but even BMW knows there is no "right" answer and the existence of the REx proves the point.

I suggest you review this article http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2014/08/guest-post-efficiency-or-range-you-cant_13.html and reconsider your thinking on efficiency. The i3 "efficiency" will not scale up. The Tesla, like the REx needs more weight to get more range and that lowers efficiency. That article does a better job of explaining it than I would.

"The i3 efficiency will not scale up"

If you compare the basic parameters of the i3 with other EV's and especially the low efficiency EV's like the Tesla, it's not hard to see that BMW has chosen a specific sized vehicle with a useful urban range to optimize its efficiency. Scaling it up in terms of size and/or range would reduce efficiency, but not down to the level of those low efficiency EV's, unless BMW threw the benefits derived from their production materials out the window and built a car along the same lines as Tesla et al.

The addition of the Rex is just an effort to make the vehicle 'right' for a larger section of the market. With the Rex, it's still primarily an EV and an efficient one, just not as efficient as the BEV. 'Right' varies according to the customer and their requirements and wants, but I think it's fair to give kudos when it is due. A lot of customers won't buy a vehicle with the i3's range even though it fits their requirements because it doesn't fit their wants.

My understanding of this topic area is that it is to offer suggestions to BMW. I've stated my perspective and I hope BMW hears it and takes it to heart.

You're certainly free to counter my perspective and assert that BMW is already the market leader in EVs and that they do not need to put any additional effort into software; they're already the leader in EV software as well.

A debate about who and who isn't efficient could be an interesting thread, but probably not in this topic area. If you'd like to pursue it please start a new topic in a different forum (perhaps General / Main area?) and let's go after it as I think there are a lot of ways to slice efficiency.

Boatguy said:

BMW, you are playing catch up in EVs. You need to run faster and get out in front. Case in point:
http://9to5mac.com/2014/08/20/tesla...without-keyfobs-with-v6-0-update/#more-336883

As BMW customers we've always felt we were with a leading edge company, now not so much.

The i8 is nice, with drop dead gorgeous styling. But at about a 50% price premium, and with two power plants and enormously more complexity, it's still slower than a Tesla P85 from 0-60.

Software is a serious weak point in the BMW-i product line, see the many threads on problems with the app.

Quit following - start leading!

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Hi Boat Guy- Always enjoy your posts but this one seems unfairly provocative.

The url you cite here is about what would seem to be a really useless Tesla feature: you can start the Tesla with your iPhone in case you can't find your key fob? This actually sounds to me more like a negative (from a safety perspective) than a positive.

Whether or not the i8 is slower from 0-60 than the Tesla P85, I'm not sure this is relevant: the two cars are both brilliant. They just serve different purposes.

And dare I mention how Elon has had to resort to personally guaranteeing the Tesla in light of all the fire safety and drivetrain issues that have arisen in it?

I think both BMW and Tesla are very innovative companies, and I only wish more companies were like them.

My broader point was about software in general, but starting the car with your phone would be great, no more keys to carry. Just like payment through phones will finally take off in the US in the next year or so (far behind Europe) so you don't need to carry a credit card. And the phone is actually much more secure than the fob since it could be verified by your fingerprint, whereas the fob need only be possessed, not verified, in order to start your car.

According to EV Insider, 60% of i3s are REx, hybrids, not EVs. BMW is a great car company, but I stand by my assertion that in EVs they are playing catch up. BMW is the benchmark for ICE sport coupes/sedans, but Tesla is the benchmark for EV sedans, and soon EV SUVs.

Using a phone to start the car is a solution waiting for a problem to happen in my view and there are more downsides than upsides for me. But I take your broader point about software. All software these days is bugged and there are glitch. BMW seem reluctant to call owners in for an update unless there is a significant problem. If there is an update, all cars should get it - it's called configuration control.

My broader point would be that it wouldn't take much effort to get to where Tesla are on software. But for Tesla to get to where BMW are in terms of construction techniques and materials would take a massive effort. So as others have said BMW lead in certain areas, other manufacturers lead in others.

Do Tesla update the whole car brain over air or just the car's nav/ents system over air?

Bill

Do Tesla update the whole car brain over air or just the car's nav/ents system over air?

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They do the whole lot - patching in this way is no easy feat (they only have one car so its much easier). So far Tesla seems to have got it right, but I am not entirely comfortable with the idea. Head-unit no problem, all the cars electronics not so much - all the car is on the net, therefore all the car is exploitable and no code is ever perfect.

The other extreme being Mitsubishi with the Outlander PHEV their first attempt at remote update bricked a few cars...

A lot of Tesla "problems" and plus points come from the same thing, they have to prove their car is better than everything else to justify their place in the market. BMW has no such pressure and is as such much more pragmatic.

BMW hardware/manufacturing innovation + Tesla software innovation = utopia!

Boatguy said:

Which manufacturer, not which car.

I assert it's Tesla. BMW and Mercedes are playing catch up.

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I'll grant that Tesla has the edge in acceleration and battery only electric range, but it has a massive deficit to overcome BMW's vast advantages in stuff that matters:

• Efficiency (i3 advantage as much as 39%)
  Fuel cost (i3 advantage as much as 39%)
  Cornering and general handling
  Controls
  Visibility
  Electronics (Adaptive Cruise Control, Self Parking, intuitive user interface)
  Seating 4 tall adults comfortably
  Practical storage space (i.e. hauling a single large, bulky object)
  Appearance (admittedly subjective)
  Seating position and comfort
  Practicality (Theoretically, the Model S can be driven a single route (slowly) coast to coast. In reality, the BMW i3 REx can be driven between any two points on the face of the earth that an ICE vehicle can manage, albeit with a few more gas stops)
  Software security (the Tesla Model S is easily hackable - a couple of college kids did some rudimentary hacking in a couple of hours. See http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/ch...essfully-hack-tesla-model-s-article-1.1896540. It wouldn't take much more time to cause serious damage) BMW locks its code down - the tradeoff being that you need to bring it in to the dealer for updates.

My comments are in red, embedded in the quote.

ultraturtle said:

I'll grant that Tesla has the edge in acceleration and battery only electric range, but it has a massive deficit to overcome BMW's vast advantages in stuff that matters:

• Efficiency (i3 advantage as much as 39%)
  Fuel cost (i3 advantage as much as 39%) Efficiency and Fuel cost is the same issue. This only counts for one!
  Cornering and general handling I didn't drive the MS, but the Roadster, which I have driven, blows the doors of the i3 on both counts!
  Controls Subjective. I pick my i3 in a few hours and have only sat in an MS, but I think Tesla wins here.
  Visibility agreed
  Electronics (Adaptive Cruise Control, Self Parking, intuitive user interface) Tesla has other electronic wiz bang stuff. Probably lots more than the i3.
  Seating 4 tall adults comfortably I'm not tall, but the rear of the MS seemed much roomier than the i3, with the front similar.
  Practical storage space (i.e. hauling a single large, bulky object) The MS frunk and trunk are much larger than the i3, and seems to be much more practical if only for the considerably greater volume. However, the i3 has no lift-over lip in the trunk.
  Appearance (admittedly subjective) pretty much agree
  Seating position and comfort yep
  Practicality (Theoretically, the Model S can be driven a single route (slowly) coast to coast. In reality, the BMW i3 REx can be driven between any two points on the face of the earth that an ICE vehicle can manage, albeit with a few more gas stops) Sorry, but this is dependent on use case.
  Software security (the Tesla Model S is easily hackable You seem to have your head in the sand assuming BMW has no security holes. I am a security expert (CISSP), but I have no idea who is really ahead here.

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i3Alan said:

Cornering and general handling I didn't drive the MS, but the Roadster, which I have driven, blows the doors of the i3 on both counts!

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Agreed. Apologies that I did not specify the comparison applied only to the Tesla Model S vs the i3. Adding the (out of production) Roadster to the comparison would have been distracting. I test drove the i3 and the Model S within a week of each other, and found the Model S to be more of a cruise ship to the i3 jet ski on cornering and general handling.

i3Alan said:

Electronics (Adaptive Cruise Control, Self Parking, intuitive user interface) Tesla has other electronic wiz bang stuff. Probably lots more than the i3.

Click to expand...

I don't think you can name anything of practical use (suspension height? - please). The large flat screen of the Model S is indeed impressive to gaze upon while sitting still, but pales in comparison to the i3's intuitively placed hard knobs and buttons which allow access to useful controls without distracting the driver while in motion. In addition to the aforementioned Dynamic Cruise Control (with braking down to a stop) and Self Parking features, the i3 has the following electronic features (mostly safety related) that the Tesla Model S does not:

• Dynamic Brake Control
  Brake Fade Compensation
  Brake Drying
  Brake Standby
  Dynamic Traction Control (DTC)
  Collision Warning (optional)
  Collision Mitigation (optional)
  Pedestrian Warning (optional)

From InsideEVs:

i3Alan said:

Seating 4 tall adults comfortably I'm not tall, but the rear of the MS seemed much roomier than the i3, with the front similar.

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At 6' 3", I'm not very tall either, but my head mashed up against the glass of the Tesla Model S in the rear seat, and I had to bend it either forward or sideways to sit straight up. Slouching enough to have my head clear drove my knees into the front seat back. Very uncomfortable. The i3 rear seats allow me to sit upright with plenty of headroom. The i3 front seats are also much more upright and comfortable for an average height driver like myself.

i3Alan said:

Software security (the Tesla Model S is easily hackable You seem to have your head in the sand assuming BMW has no security holes. I am a security expert (CISSP), but I have no idea who is really ahead here.

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I'm not a security expert at all, but have worked in numerous top secret facilities with computer networks completely unplugged from the internet. It does not take a genius to figure out that an i3 that shares its software security strategy with the most secure weapons intel vaults on the planet is more secure than a vehicle that has already been hacked with minimal effort.

I really do like the idea of BMW and Tesla collaborating. Tesla gets expertise on building a proper EV, and BMW gets access to cheap batteries. Both companies win, and so do we.

FWIW, the type of batteries used in the i3 are technically superior to those in the Tesla and is one reason why BMW's warranty on them is better. Now, what the cost will be if you keep the car long enough to need new ones may be significant, but I'll address that when the time comes. I expect that by the time that happens, you'll be able to buy more capable ones and get a longer range between charges, or use smaller ones, reduce the weight, and maybe achieve the same thing.

The i3 always runs in electric mode...the REx never provides propulsion directly, only to charge the batteries. A hybrid can use the ICE to propel the car, so the i3 REx is not truly a hybrid, it's a new class of electric vehicle - a range assisted electric car. And, depending on your electrical use, the REx may not keep up, so just refilling the gas tank, regardless of its size, may not allow you to keep going, at least with full capacity.

ultraturtle said:

I'm not a security expert at all, but have worked in numerous top secret facilities with computer networks completely unplugged from the internet. It does not take a genius to figure out that an i3 that shares its software security strategy with the most secure weapons intel vaults on the planet is more secure than a vehicle that has already been hacked with minimal effort.

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Ditto work conditions. What you are missing is that the over-the-air (OTA) SW update feature of the MS is one security hole the i3 does not have, but do not discount the very numerous other holes found in these cars. Since access inside the vehicle is so easy when one is able to get to the car (for someone knowledgable, such as a competent car thief, less than a minute without breaking a window), neither car is particularly secure. If you have possession of the car, you don't need OTA update to do whatever damage you can do with OTA. Besides, OTA really is more secure than you might think, if properly implemented with well understood security protocols. It does not require military grade security to do the job very well.