BMW i talks about larger EV, increased i3 range in 2016

Hi guys,

an increase of ca. 57 % seems a possibility (60 Ah to 94 Ah per cell). This is going around on various forums:

http://pushevs.com/2015/10/23/samsung-sdi-opens-new-battery-plant-in-china/

As much guarantee on the intel as on the Tesla model III factsheet though

Regards, Steven

Stevei3 said:

an increase of ca. 57 % seems a possibility (60 Ah to 94 Ah per cell). This is going around on various forums:

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As much as I'd love to see a bigger range increase, can I just remind everyone that this is the traditional car industry we're talking about? At this point in time, they're not thinking of achieving any super-density batteries in the short to medium term to catch up with Tesla (who have gone for niche, premium, high-price, geeky customer). For now, the i3's battery only needs to keep pace with what Nissan and Renault are doing, plus being sportier. This makes sense from an engineering and cost perspective.

I think the first big leap in range (ie 150-200mi all-electric) from a BMW i vehicle can be expected when the i5 (or whatever it will be named) is announced.

As far as the next 3-5 years are concerned, PHEV will see more adoption - that's where the masses will go. And: These are the vehicles that give people an idea of what electric motoring CAN look like, and I am sure most will be hooked and want more. I mean, look at all these folks in their Outlander PHEVs, desperate to recharge their small batteries to get another 20mi fully electric. THIS is the segment the manufacturers will focus on, because it means big unit sales and low battery costs.

With the new 30Kwh Leaf they are talking about 150 mile range, I reckon the i3 would have to come very close to this to retain the "ultimate charging machine" label

I plan on the i3 for early next year (after I have got rid of my 10 month old Audi emission clagger), shame as I traded in my A6 Hybrid for the Q3.........should have sticked with Hybrid tech for a bit longer it appears

But I am sure it will be better to lease the 2016 i3 than buy, maybe the next i3 will be "the one" that will see me out!

Boxbrownie said:

With the new 30Kwh Leaf they are talking about 150 mile range, I reckon the i3 would have to come very close to this to retain the "ultimate charging machine" label

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These people claim to have test-driven one:
The new Leaf 30kWh will reach around 130 miles under normal driving conditions though, and that is without trying particularly hard.

http://www.nextgreencar.com/review/7300/nissan-leaf-30kwh-review/

This is great progress, but unfortunately there's no Moore's Law for batteries.

psquare said:

As much as I'd love to see a bigger range increase, can I just remind everyone that this is the traditional car industry we're talking about?

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Hi,

I have to agree on that in general, with one added caveat: we’re talking about the traditional car industry on the brink of paradigm change. Never before (…well…, let me phrase it like that for dramatic purposes) have car companies relied on outside suppliers for key components like in the electric car business. So we can’t be sure how BMW will react if a drop-in replacement battery with equivalent specs but higher capacity becomes available. Maybe out of ‘Ehrgeiz’ or out of competetive considerations they will be offering larger batteries. Or maybe there’s a business case in there somewhere, like @ Tesla: charge more for more charge We’ll see. The struggle of every car company involved is interesting to watch to say the least.

In the mean time, we won’t stay put, but will be driving >125k miles with our tiny, tiny battery (and a little drop of juice now and then) in the five years we plan to own our current i3. Current stats: 20 months, 42k miles.

Regards, Steven

Stevei3 said:

So we can’t be sure how BMW will react if a drop-in replacement battery with equivalent specs but higher capacity becomes available. Maybe out of ‘Ehrgeiz’ or out of competetive considerations they will be offering larger batteries.

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It's an interesting idea, if what you are saying is that this "drop-in" battery is coming from a 3rd party rather than BMW. If I interpreted this right, then I do see problems with warranty though, as BMW will insist that any tampering with the batteries would void the warranty.

A specific 3rd party i3 drop-in battery would also be expensive to produce, I would imagine, as there is no cell-size standard, which could make the batteries compatible with other vehicles and models. Tricky that one.

I expect BMW will offer the new larger battery from early 2016, as until 31st Dec. there is a discount for the present model in Germany. The new Samsung 94 Ah cells raise capacity and range by 56%, which is quite some leap. Those cells AFAIK have exactly the same dimensions as the old 60 Ah cells, so there is no need to change packaging. A seamless change from 60 to 94 Ah is possible. The next generation with 120 Ah cells is expected in 2019.

Frank

psquare said:

It's an interesting idea, if what you are saying is that this "drop-in" battery is coming from a 3rd party rather than BMW

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Hi,

now that would be a really interesting proposition. It is not unfeasible, liability issues notwithstanding...
But I meant to say that the 94 Ah cell from Samsung seems to be a drop-in replacement for the 60 Ah cell (see also Frank's comment). Drop-in meaning, in this case, that nearly all the characteristics of the part are equivalent, so the part (in this case: the cell) can be fitted without altering circuits, assemblies or production processes.
So BMW could be able to do the dropping-in itself: the same batterypacks could be built using the higher capacity cells. It is interesting to see if they will. My guess is that a lot will depend on the price BMW has to pay Samsung for the added capacity and the guarantees that Samsung SDI can offer.

Regards, Steven

PS, BTW: a larger battery will not only add range; it will also reduce the 'C' factor (= max. power going in or out of the battery as a product of the capacity of the battery). A larger battery can provide more instantanious power and can be charged at a higher rate. See exhibit A: Tesla.

psquare said:

Boxbrownie said:

With the new 30Kwh Leaf they are talking about 150 mile range, I reckon the i3 would have to come very close to this to retain the "ultimate charging machine" label

Click to expand...

These people claim to have test-driven one:
The new Leaf 30kWh will reach around 130 miles under normal driving conditions though, and that is without trying particularly hard.

http://www.nextgreencar.com/review/7300/nissan-leaf-30kwh-review/

This is great progress, but unfortunately there's no Moore's Law for batteries.

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You missed off the last line of that part

" What that equates to is a real-world range in excess of the previous model's quoted figure, which is rather impressive."

Boxbrownie said:

" What that equates to is a real-world range in excess of the previous model's quoted figure, which is rather impressive."

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You're right. 30 more miles. Wow.

If the 2016 i3 update (if there is one) can manage 120 miles a charge that'll be my name on the order book straight away, under 100miles had always seemed a bit half arsed.

Don't get me wrong though.......I have driven the i3 several times now and it is the best EV by far IMO, but the range (since we both retired and became a one car family) has been a sticking point, as we have family quite spread around the country.

But if the new ReX can manage 200 miles without stopping.............bring it on, we'll be driving around in a car that has looked like the future very soon indeed.

psquare said:

Boxbrownie said:

" What that equates to is a real-world range in excess of the previous model's quoted figure, which is rather impressive."

Click to expand...

You're right. 30 more miles. Wow.

Click to expand...

Well if the next charge point is 29 miles away, that smile might be more genuine :lol:

fdl1409 said:

I expect BMW will offer the new larger battery from early 2016, as until 31st Dec. there is a discount for the present model in Germany. The new Samsung 94 Ah cells raise capacity and range by 56%, which is quite some leap. Those cells AFAIK have exactly the same dimensions as the old 60 Ah cells, so there is no need to change packaging. A seamless change from 60 to 94 Ah is possible. The next generation with 120 Ah cells is expected in 2019.

Frank

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Have to admit I was smiling when I read "seamless". Let's just hope it will be that way!

sorry, post with redundant info (apparent recycling of OP's post) I have removed the contents myself.

-Steven-

The cost of a replacement battery pack may make it more reasonable to trade in the car. Hard to say until it becomes available, and then, it would only make sense if your old one didn't meet your current needs. There is very likely a moderate amount of residual value in the existing pack, but that, again, is still up in the air. WIth the factory 8-year warranty, I probably would not be in the market for new batteries, but maybe by then, might want a new car to brighten things up from the wear over that time. Given the nature of how body panels are attached, it may even be possible to give the car a new exterior look as well.

jadnashuanh said:

Given the nature of how body panels are attached, it may even be possible to give the car a new exterior look as well.

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Botox for your i3 does not appeal.

Just took the time to watch a US motoring show which was posted up on the UK i3 Facebook group with featured guest Sandy Munroe; who, ( as an Industry insider), let slip that the i5 would be using a Fuel cell which BMW did as a tech swap with Toyota see at 31:30:- https://youtu.be/uDr4L6BzpP8

BMW has also said that they think it will be two more generations of development on the fuel cell before it is really ready for prime time and anything out there now has a lot of compromises. THey indicated that their thoughts were a generational breakthrough took about 5-years, so we're talking prime time starting 2025 or so. Chicken/egg, you can't sell them widespread until the infrastructure exists. They are intended for long range travel...kind of useless unless you can refill it. Same issue we're having now with CCS recharging stations. Great if you live near some and you don't need to travel outside of that area. This is the primary reason why Toyota has a very limited area where it will be selling it's fuel cell vehicle.

I do believe that fuel cell technology has a place in the mix, and will become at least one power source, but keep in mind, while the car itself would be pollution free, making the hydrogen comes with its own problems and energy costs...hydrogen really doesn't like to be out there on its own...breaking it out of wherever it is takes a good amount of energy, as well as the power it takes to compress it to a useful consistency. And, at least today, one common source is to break it out of natural gas...leaving a lot of CO2 to be disposed of. A surplus of electrical power could get it from water, but we don't have a surplus electricity nor, at least in some places (say California for example) a lot of water to crack into H2 and O2.

Munro's i5 prediction is based on two factors. First, BMW and Toyota have a partnership to share developments in carbon fiber and fuel cell technologies among others. Expect to see future Toyotas employing more carbon fiber while BMW rolls out fuel cells. Second, CARB ZEV rules taking effect in 2017 favor FCVs over BEVs. The so-called travel rule for BEVs expires in 2017 yet remains in effect for FCVs until 2025.

Anyone heard an update on the updated range car? I'm looking to lease in DEC and the dealers are saying they don't have a clue when the new battery is coming out.

When do the 16s arrive?