tim760
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Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:53 pm

All of this primarily depends on how BMW handles battery upgrades. If they continue to support the car by embracing battery upgrades to allow older cars to keep up (trading in your old battery like the pilot program they had running in Europe), then the life and resale value of the this car will be strong. If they don’t, then the original real world range of the first gen models (and then 2nd gen, etc) will quickly lose competitive value.

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MKH
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Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:06 am

All of this primarily depends on how BMW handles battery upgrades.
Will certainly be a factor. Not sure that BMW designed the car to make a battery upgrade easy, though. A few owners have posted getting their battery replaced due to it degrading below the 70% warranty threshold, and the Dealer listing an astronomical price for the job (I think BMW says the cost is $16,000). Perhaps with more car batteries needing warranted replacement, BMW will main-stream another battery upgrade program at a more reasonable price.

I like the MINI EV price, but having owned a MINI Cooper, a car with a back seat that can only comfortably accommodate four-year-olds, and a cargo area the size of a shoe-box you can barely cram one bag of groceries into will be a non-starter for a lot of people. Not to mention I found the MINI Cooper down-right dangerous to drive in big city traffic. Being 6+ inches lower than the average car - can't count the number times in my MINI Cooper I was almost run over by big SUVs and pick-up trucks that just didn't see me in the next lane. Hopefully the MINI ev will spark some more practical competition at that price-point.
the original real world range of the first gen models (and then 2nd gen, etc) will quickly lose competitive value.
Even then, I think there will still be a strong market for these cars, as a 2nd or 3rd car. One in which a mom drives kids a mile to school and back, and goes 3 miles to the grocery store; or a High Schooler's first car that gets driven less than 30 miles a week .
Mark H.
2015 i3 Rex, Capparis White, Tera World, Technology & Driving Assistant, Parking Assistant, Harman Kardon Audio System, 19 inch 427 wheels, EVoInnovate EVSE

SkepTeach
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Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:16 am

or a High Schooler's first car that gets driven less than 30 miles a week .
I have always thought a low-range BEV would be a great first vehicle for a high schooler. Little to no maintenance, inability to travel more than necessary, no fuel expense, generally safer than many ICE cars, and it would teach the responsibility of remembering to charge. The fact that they're stupid cheap is another win.

Busfolder
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Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:44 pm

Another attraction of a used i3 as a first car for young people is BMW's design for sustainability. Under 30s here in the UK are much more aware of environmental concerns, and once used prices of the i3 fall to affordable levels for this age group, they should find a ready market.

However, high insurance costs and the UK's still patchy public charger network are inhibiting factors...

(The Chevy Bolt's not an issue here- the most common EV in the UK is the Nissan Leaf)


Chris

MarkNo
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Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:23 pm

The i3 is a unique car that was ahead of it's time on initial release, and as a city car in a dense congested urban environment it is hard to beat. It is surprisingly spacious inside for it's size, easy to park, can turn on a dime to nab a spot across the street, and darts through traffic with agility and sprightly acceleration from a standstill. It's acceleration from 0-100km/h is decent, but from 0-45km/hr it is superb, and that is what is needed in urban driving.

The i3 is also a small luxury car which is expensive for it's size, but small and luxurious is actually something prized by some of us. Europeans have access to small luxurious vehicles that are not brought to North America where we are obsessed with bigger SUVs. I would love to see the Audi Q2 passing behemoth Q7's.

I have owned an i3 with REX and hardly used the REX - to me it is the Achilles heel in an otherwise phenomenal design. The REX caused me headaches and I believe it causes a lot of reliability problems over the pure BEV i3. To me the REX was several hundred pounds of added weight that degraded performance and range.

And speaking of range, it is an overrated statistic that ignores the fact that the i3 is a small city car with perfectly adequate range in city driving. The decision to have a smaller battery was an engineering decision considering the intended use of the vehicle as a small every day urban car. Range anxiety is partly a marketing ploy - If you want really long range there is the Tesla Model S, but forget about using this land-yacht as a city runabout.

I am awaiting delivery of a 2020 BEV i3. For my needs no other EV comes close to competing with the i3. Long-live the i3!

KarlC
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Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:31 pm

Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices.......

My wife thought she wanted a Mini until she drove one, they are cute but ride like crap.

If anyone test drives both most would not buy the Mini


.
2015 i3 Rex, Arravani Grey, Tera World, Technology, Driving & Parking Assistant, Harman Kardon Audio System, 20" wheels

jlangham
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:01 pm

Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:56 am

MarkNo wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:23 pm
The i3 is a unique car that was ahead of it's time on initial release, and as a city car in a dense congested urban environment it is hard to beat. It is surprisingly spacious inside for it's size, easy to park, can turn on a dime to nab a spot across the street, and darts through traffic with agility and sprightly acceleration from a standstill. It's acceleration from 0-100km/h is decent, but from 0-45km/hr it is superb, and that is what is needed in urban driving.

The i3 is also a small luxury car which is expensive for it's size, but small and luxurious is actually something prized by some of us. Europeans have access to small luxurious vehicles that are not brought to North America where we are obsessed with bigger SUVs. I would love to see the Audi Q2 passing behemoth Q7's.

I have owned an i3 with REX and hardly used the REX - to me it is the Achilles heel in an otherwise phenomenal design. The REX caused me headaches and I believe it causes a lot of reliability problems over the pure BEV i3. To me the REX was several hundred pounds of added weight that degraded performance and range.

And speaking of range, it is an overrated statistic that ignores the fact that the i3 is a small city car with perfectly adequate range in city driving. The decision to have a smaller battery was an engineering decision considering the intended use of the vehicle as a small every day urban car. Range anxiety is partly a marketing ploy - If you want really long range there is the Tesla Model S, but forget about using this land-yacht as a city runabout.

I am awaiting delivery of a 2020 BEV i3. For my needs no other EV comes close to competing with the i3. Long-live the i3!
Awsome post. Couldn't agree more. I have a 2014 BEV. Don't even drive my 2016 Tacoma Limited 4x4 (which I love) very much any more. i3 goes to work and all the around town shopping stuff.

i3Houston
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Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:41 am

tim760 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:53 pm
All of this primarily depends on how BMW handles battery upgrades. If they continue to support the car by embracing battery upgrades to allow older cars to keep up (trading in your old battery like the pilot program they had running in Europe), then the life and resale value of the this car will be strong.
Your point makes lot of sense, as people would trade smaller battery pack for bigger one instead of buying a different car, it would lead to fewer i3s in the market, driving up their prices.

Also, depreciation is offset by the cost saving that i3( any EV) brings, before i3, maintenance/gas etc would easily cost about 1K or more each year. So over 7 years, value of i3 would be ~$7K+i3's value. Assuming cars value is $5K but its actual worth is $7K + $5K, total $13K. But seriously, its not all about the money, the joy that an EV brings and being part of the EV guild is much more precious!
TM3 Reservation holder/ 2015 i3 Rex

jadnashuanh
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Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:02 pm

I have the advantage of being retired, and the option of generally traveling when I want. 95% of my needs are easily handled by my i3 BEV. I purposely did not want the REx so I could avoid the weight, oil changes, mufflers, tuneups, etc. required for any ICE, not counting the extra $4-5K it cost to buy it. My ICE only gets used occasionally.

If you have an EVSE at home, it's kind of silly not to just get in the habit of plugging it in when you get home. Think of it like your cellphone...most charge it every day. It's a mindset. Nearing 5-years on mine, and plugging it in every time I get home has not exhibited much, if any, battery degradation. FWIW, even on a day that doesn't get above 0F (yes, they happen, but not all that often here), the car has more range than I need.

So, it's a function of understanding the capabilities and your needs. That takes a bit more education than the average car owner wants to invest in. THink about how few people actually look at their owner's manual? Education is the key, but that is not an easy hurdle to clear except for the motivated.

FWIW, the average salesman isn't that knowledgeable, either. Plus, since EVs typically don't require anywhere near as much periodic maintenance, the service center isn't going to be bringing in a regular stream of revenue from their sale. That may be the bigger reason why EVs aren't promoted more than they are now.
Jim DeBruycker
2011 535i x-drive GT, 2014 i3 BEV

skeptic
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:31 pm

Re: Mini EV will kill used i3 prices

Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:30 am

MarkNo wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:23 pm
And speaking of range, it is an overrated statistic that ignores the fact that the i3 is a small city car with perfectly adequate range in city driving. The decision to have a smaller battery was an engineering decision considering the intended use of the vehicle as a small every day urban car. Range anxiety is partly a marketing ploy - If you want really long range there is the Tesla Model S, but forget about using this land-yacht as a city runabout.

I am awaiting delivery of a 2020 BEV i3. For my needs no other EV comes close to competing with the i3. Long-live the i3!
Range anxiety is definitely not a marketing ploy. If anything, EV manufacturers are trying to minimize it.

My daily round trip commute is ~60 miles. There is a block of 4 level 2 chargers at work which usually have an open spot, but not always. I suspect in the next few years either the company will add more charging spaces or the existing ones will always be full, or perhaps both. Either way I can't count on being able to charge at work in the future. Winter time, highway speeds, desire to NOT drive without heat/AC and real world range can be much less than the 80 or so miles of a 60Ah..... My options really come down to a 60Ah BEV and just hope, a 94Ah and never forget to charge or otherwise always leave the house with 100% battery, or buy a REX and probably not need it very often for my daily commute. The REX also allows for forgetting to plug it in or longer day trips - the wife and I regularly take a drive to the Oregon coast, usually around 170 mile round trip. That wouldn't happen even in the newest 2020 BEV.

Anyway, everyone has a different situation. The i3 may be marketed as a city car, but it's not a city only car. I see it as a commuter car that I want to be able to use for more than just commuting to work and back. Call it range anxiety, call it practicality, call it delusional ignorance, call it whatever you want but for me personally I wouldn't consider anything with less than a 200 mile range and no range extender. There is a reason BMW offers it in a REX version - they knew from the beginning that the paltry ~80 mile range would not be enough for many people. It's no surprise to me that the REX outsells the BEV by a wide margin.

Personally, I'd rather have an i3 BEV with 200 mile range than a 200 mile range REX if such a thing existed. The current 153 mile 120Ah BEV is actually getting kinda close, and if the i3 had that from the start I'd seriously consider going that route over a REX (and just use another car for day trips and such).

And finally, because I haven't been quite long winded enough.... As I touched on above, charging infrastructure makes a huge difference and in the future will really determine what is enough range. In the future my over used coast trip example may be just fine for a 60Ah BEV if there are DC/level 2 chargers all over the place. Unlike gas stations that require huge underground tanks, you can put an EV charger anywhere you can get enough electricity. Other areas of the country (or other countries) are going to have more or less need for longer range batteries. In the not too distant future I'd expect just about every restaurant, grocery store, hotel and rest stop to have at least a level 2 charger, if not DC fast charger. If I were in a different part of the country then maybe I wouldn't feel the need for a REX.

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