CHAdeMO to SAE J1772 DC (Combo) adaptor?

Hello.
I am the proud new owner of an i3 BEV with DC fast charger. I live in Burlington VT.
The only DC fast charging stations are of the CHAdeMO standard.
I have searched, without success, to see if there is a CHAdeMO to SAE J1772 DC (Combo) adaptor (similar to the CHAdeMO to Tesla adaptor that is now available for the Model S).
Does anyone know if such an adaptor exists?
Thanks!

No doesn't exist, and unlikely to ever exist. It would be prohibitively expensive to design and develop.

See previous discussion - http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1214

There is DC quick charger Middlebury ,Vermont that has both
Chademo and SAE connectors. There is company that was going to installing three or four of these dual chargers in Vermont. I am Not sure if they're still planning to install these Dual quick chargers. You can find it with the plugshare app.

There's a bit more to it that just adding the correct plug...the signaling levels would need to be the same as well, and I do not think they are. It probably wouldn't be that hard to add a board to support the new J1772 standard and use the same DC power supply, but those pesky signals need to be correct for it all to work.

It shouldn't be technically difficult to support Chademo or create the Chademo adaptor. EVSE is just a fancy power extension cord. Getting the license to do so is another matter. In fact, Chademo is available to i3 in Japan.

http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-gets-chademo-charged-japan/

To bad BMW won't extend it to here. In my area, there are many Chademo stations, but big fat ZERO for dc combo.

I have done the research, it would definitely possible for a company to develop
and sell a converter that has two input connectors (1) Tesla DC Supercharger
and (2) ChadeMo DC and outputs SAE J1772 DC (Combo) adaptor. The DC
signal conversion can be done. This device would the size of a large lunch box
and fit nicely in the front trunk area.

This converter could sell for about $500, not the ridiculous $2000 Tesla
charges for their overpriced ChadeMo to Tesla Supercharger converter.
Any company that is smart enough to make a product like this will be very
successful, there is tremendous demand for this type of product. BMW
sales for the i3 are very strong and expected to increase even more,
also with the i8 and then the i5 coming out this will increase demand even more.
At $500 price point, almost every BMW i Series owner would get one.

GM, Ford, Audi, BMW, MB, and probably others, have all settled on the SAE fast charge standard for NA...so, if anything, expect to see more of those show up than ChadeMO in the future. I would expect them to eclipse the number of ChadeMo units installed fairly quickly in the next 18-months.

Blue20 said:

It shouldn't be technically difficult to support Chademo or create the Chademo adaptor. EVSE is just a fancy power extension cord. Getting the license to do so is another matter. In fact, Chademo is available to i3 in Japan.

http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-gets-chademo-charged-japan/

To bad BMW won't extend it to here. In my area, there are many Chademo stations, but big fat ZERO for dc combo.

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I have been approached by BMW i3 owners to extend our successful "JdeMO" project beyond the Toyota RAV4 EV (launch model) and Mercedes B-Class ED.

Both of those cars use a Tesla drivetrain and CAN communication, so it's a relatively easy task for us to do both of those cars. But, the BMW will take considerable additional effort.

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10170#p10170

jadnashuanh said:

GM, Ford, Audi, BMW, MB, and probably others, have all settled on the SAE fast charge standard for NA...so, if anything, expect to see more of those show up than ChadeMO in the future. I would expect them to eclipse the number of ChadeMo units installed fairly quickly in the next 18-months.

Click to expand...

Good luck with that dream.

The CCS Combo2 is doing well in Europe because every German auto company backs it (without exception), yet no other car company anywhere in the world will use it.

Not too surprising, Combo2 is enforced through regulatory compliance. The German car makers tried VERY hard to outlaw all the competition, and came very close. Thankfully, CHAdeMO, Tesla Supercharger and Chameleon managed to escape being outlawed, so even in the hotbed of "Frankenplug", Combo2 isn't going to take over.

In the USA, only General Motors (GM) promotes the SAE CCS Combo1 (which does not interchange with Combo2). There is no regulatory enforcement to support GM. GM only produces pure electric vehicles in South Korea at dozens per month, imported to the US strictly for California Air Resources Board (CARB) Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) compliance, sold in California and Oregon only (both are CARB-ZEV states). GM makes no effort to install compatible SAE CCS Combo1 stations.

Neither US based manufacturer Ford, nor Fiat/Chrysler have announced any plans to use SAE CCS Combo1. Neither manufacturer plans to install SAE CCS Combo1 anywhere, at any time.

No regulatory help is pending, or being promoted in any US state or at the US federal level in support of SAE CCS combo1.

The largest electric vehicle US based auto manufacturer, Tesla Motors, has zero plans to ever use SAE CCS Combo1, and is very quickly building out their own nationwide Supercharger network.

USA DC Charging Standards:

DC fast charging system standards IEC 61851-23 gives the requirements for "DC chargers" and provides the general requirements for the control communication between a DC fast charger and an EV. IEC 62851-24 defines digital communication between a DC fast charger and an EV.


1) CHAdeMO (IEC System A)

2) GB/T (IEC System B)

3) SAE CCS COMBO1 (IEC System C)

4) Menekkes CCS COMBO2 (IEC System C)

5) Tesla Supercharger (not recognized by IEC)


Neither GB/T nor Menekkes CCS-Combo2 are offered outside of their home markets of China and Europe respectively


USA Quick Charge data, sometimes colloquially referred to as "L3"

1. SAE CCS Combo1, or "J1772 DC" - approximately 23 in the USA (and worldwide)
http://standards.sae.org/j1772_201210/
up to 100kW eventually, probably limited to 62.5kW
Uses a different plug in Europe (Menekkes CCS Combo2) than the plug used in USA

EVs compatible include:

*GM Spark EV - less than 1000 cars
*BMW i3 - 3000 cars through Oct 1, 2014
*VW eGolf (coming 2014)



2. CHAdeMO - 3800 worldwide, 700 in the USA, adding about 1 per day
http://www.chademo.com
up to 100kW eventually, currently limited to 62.5kW
Uses the same plug worldwide

EVs compatible with CHAdeMO include:

*Nissan LEAF - over 60,000 in the USA and over 140,000 worldwide
*Nissan e-NV200 (coming 2015)
*Citroen C-Zero - not sold in USA
*Citroën Berlingo - not sold in USA
*Mitsubishi i-MiEV - over 30,000 worldwide with its variants C-Zero & iON
*Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (coming 2015)
*Mitsubishi Fuso Canter truck
*Peugeot iON - not sold in USA
*Peugeot Partner - not sold in USA
*Kia Soul EV (coming Oct 2014)
*ZERO motorcycles
*Tesla except Roadster with Tesla supplied adaptor



3. Supercharger - 200 worldwide, 120 stations in the USA, each with 4-8 stalls, growing fast
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
up to 135kW eventually, currently limited at some sites to 120kW
Uses a different plug in Europe than the one used in North America and Japan

EVs compatible with Supercharger include:

*Tesla only, except Roadster - 55,000 worldwide


*******

Tony, a very interesting post. I see though that your count of BMW i3's is off by a factor of 10. Total worldwide sales up to Sept 2014 were 10,000 not 1000. Would that have made any difference in your opinion?

WoodlandHills said:

Tony, a very interesting post. I see though that your count of BMW i3's is off by a factor of 10. Total worldwide sales up to Sept 2014 were 10,000 not 1000. Would that have made any difference in your opinion?

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Only BMW i3s sold in North America use SAE CCS Combo1. In Europe they use Combo2 (Mennekes). Japanese i3s use CHAdeMO. I can't find any what style charger they will use in China, but I'd bet on GB/T.

... and not all i3 cars have the fast charge option. I wonder what the "attach-rate" is? A bit of pump priming problem as the value of the DC option depends on the existence of charging stations--- and vice versa.

Although not economical in the long run, I think adapters can be a huge benefit to the ecosystem in the early days (i.e., now). What does it cost to retro-fit a Chademo station to add an SAE Combo charger? How much would it cost to tether an adapter to existing stations? Inelegant, but effect and fast solution.......

My guess is the % of i3 having fast charge option is pretty high.

On the other hand, there are a lot of i-MiEV and leaf under city or corporate fleet. Those won't have CHAdeMO fast charge.

WoodlandHills said:

Tony, a very interesting post. I see though that your count of BMW i3's is off by a factor of 10. Total worldwide sales up to Sept 2014 were 10,000 not 1000. Would that have made any difference in your opinion?

Click to expand...

That was a post primarily about USA charging. Most of the post specifically isn't opinion; its fact. If I misquoted the USA sales number for BMW, sorry. Edit: I have since updated the data to reflect 3000 sold in the USA through Oct 1, 2014

I fully recognize that folks who bought a BMW want to see BMW compatible charge stations, except there's a problem. BMW only uses the SAE CCS Combo1 in the USA to try and slow up the runaway Nissan success (still the number one selling EV in HISTORY, including number one in USA and number in the world). Nissan, of course, is a founding member of the CHAdeMO Association, which has the only plug that is EXACTLY the same anywhere in the world; Tokyo, Chicago, or Oslo.

BMW freely and intliigently uses CHAdeMO on i3 in Japan, where they would get laughed out of the country if they tried the CCS game there. I've had the CCS argument too many times, so if you support it, awesome.

The problem becomes, however, that GM and their German car maker CCS alliance partners mostly support CCS in name only. There is not a lot of activity in the USA from any of those manufacturers at actually building a charging network. The closest that BMW has come is to rebrand and subsidize a Bosch built 25kW charger for some dealers.

None of the other US or German car makers, except GM, BMW, VW and Daimler / Mercedes have any plans to use either CCS on a car, or install a single station. No other car companies anywhere in the entire world openly and constructively support CCS. That's it.

GM was successful in getting the state of California to make NRG install 200 CCS stations over four years (and every one of them will have a CHAdeMO station right next to it). Neither VW or Daimler / Mercedes Benz have announced any plans to install CCS stations.

The CCS camp got a surprise windfall when Kia announced that many (most? all?) of their installed CHAdeMO stations will also host a CCS one. I suspect that is in part to meet regulatory compliance in Europe that mandates CCS Combo2, but "allows" competitors like CHAdeMO (well over 1300 stations in Europe), Tesla Supercharger (growing VERY fast in Europe) and Chameleon (the de facto standard of France).

Since BMW is the ONLY car company in the CCS consortium that is selling an EV in the USA with aspirations to actually make volume EV sales above mere CARB-ZEV minimum compliance levels, the ball truly is in their court. I wouldn't want to be betting big on CCS, and the timid 25kW chargers seems that BMW agrees with me!!!

For model years 2015 and beyond, both Large Vehicle Manufacturers (LVM) and Intermediate Vehicle Manufacturers (IVM) must comply with California Air Resources Board (CARB) Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandates:

Manufacturer - ZEV used for CARB compliance:

BMW - i3... they are in a hydrogen alliance.
Fiat/Chrysler - 500e
Ford - Focus EV, hydrogen by 2018?
General Motors - Spark EV, potential "200 mile EV moon-shot", hydrogen by 2018?
Honda - absolutley hydrogen starting 2015
Hyundai - absolutley hydrogen starting 2015
Kia - Soul EV, solidly on an EV track
Mazda - Demio EV
Daimler/Mercedes - B-Class ED, Smart ED, absolutely hydrogen by 2018
Nissan - LEAF, eNV-2000
Toyota - absolutley hydrogen starting 2015
Volkswagen - eGolf


Auto manufacturers that are NOT subject to CARB-ZEV due to their small sales in California. These additional manufacturers are required to comply with the ZEV requirements, but would be allowed to meet their obligation with Plug-In Hybrids (PHEV):

Tesla
Mitsubishi
Fuji Heavy Industry (Subaru)
Jaguar Land Rover
Volvo


Believe it or not, with so many huge manufacturers going away from battery electric cars altogether to hydrogen, the weak players in the EV charging business are more likely to get culled. You can guess which ones are the weak ones.

I think the "plug wars" will be a short term phenomenon. Longer term, public charging (even "DC Fast Charging") is a pretty dumb idea. It seems very silly to build a ton of infrastructure for edge cases. Certainly not sensible to use public funds to subsidize a Fast Charging network.

What is sensible is overnight Level 2 charging at home.

A very distant second would be charging at work and/or mass transit parking lots. Incidental Level 2 charging is not worth the effort, and public Level 3 charging is just a marketing gimmick. If Level3 public charging encourages more people to buy BEVs with less range than they need, then this will create a perverse incentive and require an ever increasing investment in negative ROI public investment. We don't need to cover every use case with electrons (or hydrogen). Gasoline will be part of the mix for many many decades.

But, alas, we have to live in the world we're born into, and I very much enjoyed using a public DC fast charging station on a long trip today.

Chrisn said:

I think the "plug wars" will be a short term phenomenon. Longer term, public charging (even "DC Fast Charging") is a pretty dumb idea. It seems very silly to build a ton of infrastructure for edge cases. Certainly not sensible to use public funds to subsidize a Fast Charging network.

What is sensible is overnight Level 2 charging at home.

...I very much enjoyed using a public DC fast charging station on a long trip today.

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The "Plug-In America" camp certainly agrees with you. The absolute best way to keep electric cars as a niche product for a relative few is to keep electric cars as a second or third car tethered to the wealthy homeowner's home charge station, then "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" or other oil car to drive more than 30-40 miles away from home.

Naturally, that works well for folks who are homeowners, and who are wealthy enough to have extra cars sitting around and the available parking space(s) for all that largess.

If you're a home renter or in an apartment without a place to charge at home, I guess electric cars aren't for you, eh? If you don't wish to own, or can't afford to own or have no place to put a spare oil burning car or two, I guess you're out of luck, right?

Again, if you want EV's to be a niche market for mostly wealthy homeowners only, no pubic charging is the ideal way to do that. Today, I'm going to drive my Toyota RAV4 EV from San Diego to San Francisco on nothing but public charging infrastructure. 523 miles each way. Frankly, the public infrastructure for non-Tesla Supercharger equipped cars is marginal for such a drive in California. In contrast, Oregon and Washington state have done a FANTASTIC job with the West Coast Electric Highway.

While I am that "wealthy" homeowner, I chose not to consume gasoline, nor own spare oil cars for my personal transportation. To do that requires a healthy and robust public charging infrastructure IN ADDITION TO home overnight charging.

May I say that I agree with the last comments and add that the public charging stations need to be removed from the shopping centers and moved to the highway exits. Imagine if you wanted to fill your car up on a trip and you had to leave the freeway, drive 6 miles to the mall and then hunt down the gas pump. There is a reason that gas stations are often clustered at highway exits, should EVs be any different?

I think you guys are missing my point. The adopting of EVs is a process that will take decades. We don't need to waste money addressing the needs of all users in all use cases at the beginning of this process. Early adopters WILL be higher-income people with multiple cars. That's not bad.

Public charging needs to be for edge cases, not everyday use. In the SF Bay Area, even at the is early stage, the existing public charging stations are saturated and can no longer be counted on for availability. Rather than pouring tons of public money into trying to keep up with demand, we should use the price system to ensure that only drivers that REALLY NEED the charge and using the scare chargers. Certainly free is NOT the right price to efficiently allocate the plugs. Folks seeking to minimize charging cost and maximize convenience should face a price system that encourages them to buy a car with the range to meet 90% of their daily needs and recharge at home overnight.

Its fine to make DC Fast Charging free for so long as there is excess capacity, but long term it should be priced at a steep premium to "home kWh" to reflect the huge benefit to consumers and the high cost of deployment.

WoodlandHills said:

There is a reason that gas stations are often clustered at highway exits, should EVs be any different?

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Multi-hour chargers (L2) were located where people parked for multiple hours. When fast chargers were added, they were built in similar locations. This is probably optimal for urban locations.

Longer term, Fast Charging in urban locations is silly. Fast Chargers should be near freeway exits along routes between major urban centers. Tesla's own network reflects this.