BMW i3 Range Extender

[brg2290]

Here's a little blurb on the i3 range extender on Inside EV's (see a few of Tom M...and George's? comments below the article).

http://insideevs.com/bmw-details-range-extender-on-upcoming-i3-up-to-160-more-miles-on-gas/

Gary

 

[Northwestern]

My thinking is a few different configurations might double sales. For me, a 16 kwh battery w/REx would be perfect. 16 kwh gets you the maximum Fed. tax credit and the loss of the weight of 6 kwh is probably close to the added weight of REx and components. Also, the 16 kwh w/REx would have a comparable price to the standard 22. Keep the 22 kwh w/quick charge, 480v-port and add one with about 125 miles of range (28-30 kwh?). I'm not sure about the logistics of giving the consumer a lot of configurations but our "daily grinds" and "weekend-warrior activities" are fairly unique and certainly one size doesn't fit all.

 

[surfingslovak]

Here's a little blurb on the i3 range extender on Inside EV's (see a few of Tom M...and George's? comments below the article).

Gary, thank you for the pointer. Although I know as much, or as little, as everyone else, I left a comment or two in the discussion section having read your post. I'm not sure if you knew this, but there is a BMW-hosted ActiveE forum, where some of the i3-specific discussion takes place as well. The ActiveE and i3 Facebook groups are probably the most active venues, as far as field trial participants go. I realize that it's not a good platform for everyone, and I wasn't very active on Facebook prior to engaging in a few of those communities.

I like this improvement, but I wonder how effective the heat pump system is when heat is needed most. My understanding is that heat pumps lose much of their efficiency in sub-freezing temps. BTW, I followed the buildup to and reports from the Phoenix meeting. Thanks for being there to represent owners and be a witness to Nissan.

One more thing, my understanding is a heat pump is about 3 to 3.5 times more efficient than a resistive heater. This covers a wide range of temperatures roughly down to about 32 degrees. The efficiency then decreases between the freezing point and 0 degrees, when the pump becomes about as inefficient as a regular heater. What we observed in Phoenix on the 2013 prototype LEAF would support this notion as well. Unfortunately, we might not get many more data points for the 2013 heat pump operation in cold weather this winter.

I like where things are headed since Chelsea took on a more active role in the LEAF community. Hopefully, I had some positive impact on what transpired last year - I never intended to be this active, and acted mostly out of what I considered necessity.

 

[Parker]

With the recent price drop and claimed range extension up to 140 miles do people think the new 2013 Leaf will give the i3 a hard time? Previously I would never have considered a pure electric vehicle .... Tesla S's aren't available here yet ... but as the chap from BMW says a 100-120 mile pure electric would cover 99% of most people’s needs ..... so with a range 140 miles I'm starting to feel OK about an electric only vehicle. Plus with a good £10k ($16k) potential price advantage ...is the new Leaf making people think twice about the i3 and the Rex version?

In Europe we get the Renault Zoe soon. This is a pure electric car, again with a 120 mile range BUT with a price of £13k (less than half the price of a Volt /Ampera) ....... the EV market is certainly hotting up 2013.

 

[brg2290]

With the recent price drop and claimed range extension up to 140 miles do people think the new 2013 Leaf will give the i3 a hard time?

I believe that there is a expectation that the mileage range on the 2013 Leaf may improve slightly (some have said up to 80 miles average). The 140 you refer to may be extrapolated from the Japanese test cycle, which as I understand it is extremely optimistic in its estimates, and not necessarily reflective of actual driving results.

In Europe we get the Renault Zoe soon. This is a pure electric car, again with a 120 mile range BUT with a price of £13k (less than half the price of a Volt /Ampera) ....... the EV market is certainly hotting up 2013.

Yes, more offerings to choose from would seem to be a good thing. The Zoe will be an interesting addition to the market. If I remember correctly, the price of the Zoe is low because the battery is not part of the purchase price and will be leased at an additional cost. Is that correct?

George, thank you for the link to the ActiveE forum...I'll check it out.
Gary

 

[Northwestern]

On the range issue, if you are buying an EV new even coastal California, probably the best climate for an EV, I only get 80% of my initial range after 5 years and the battery is theoretically dead at 9 years (70% of initial range). A 120-mile range would meet my needs today (only 96 after 5 years) but what happens if I move? That's why I like "REx insurance," or the 2015 BMW Active Tourer w/190 hp coming from a 3-cylinder engine and hybrid battery and 20-mile plug in. I'm encouraged that BMW figures no one shoe will fit all sizes.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss

 

[Parker]

or the 2015 BMW Active Tourer w/190 hp coming from a 3-cylinder engine and hybrid battery and 20-mile plug in. I'm encouraged that BMW figures no one shoe will fit all sizes.

The great thing about the BMW 1.5 3-cylinder engine is that it will do 50+mpg (imp) even without the hybrid battery element ... so yes I'm very interested in the BMW 1 Series GT too.

I've got a feeling both the i3 and the One GT are both being launched at the Frankfurt Motor show this September.

If I remember correctly, the price of the Zoe is low because the battery is not part of the purchase price and will be leased at an additional cost. Is that correct?

Yes that’s right, for the mileage I would do it would be about £70 per month. I'm not sure how I feel about never owning the whole car ... however I suppose if these issues with batteries aren't resolved maybe that’s a good thing as when the usage level drops below 70% (or maybe even before then) I would be within my rights to ask for new set of batteries.

 

[surfingslovak]

With the recent price drop and claimed range extension up to 140 miles do people think the new 2013 Leaf will give the i3 a hard time?

I believe that there is a expectation that the mileage range on the 2013 Leaf may improve slightly (some have said up to 80 miles average). The 140 you refer to may be extrapolated from the Japanese test cycle, which as I understand it is extremely optimistic in its estimates, and not necessarily reflective of actual driving results.

Absolutely, Nissan has marketed the same car with widly diverging range figures in different markets. AFAIK, Nissan representatives themselves don't expect the EPA range in the US to change materially with the introduction of the 2013 MY. I'm surprised that it hasn't been officially announced yet, given that the new model year will be in showrooms in a month or so.

On the range issue, if you are buying an EV new even coastal California, probably the best climate for an EV, I only get 80% of my initial range after 5 years and the battery is theoretically dead at 9 years (70% of initial range). A 120-mile range would meet my needs today (only 96 after 5 years) but what happens if I move? That's why I like "REx insurance," or the 2015 BMW Active Tourer w/190 hp coming from a 3-cylinder engine and hybrid battery and 20-mile plug in. I'm encouraged that BMW figures no one shoe will fit all sizes.

As someone who was knee-deep involved in the Phoenix crisis, I cannot stress enough how important realistic range expectations are. Also, it would be good to realize that the majority of capacity fade will likely occur in the first and second year of ownership. I would certainly not expect a linear decline in capacity over time. This is one of the main factors driving me towards the REx as well.

That said, I believe that not all batteries are created equal, and I hope that the SB LiMotive (now Bosch) cells will perform better. The ActiveE has a thermal management system, which should help in both hot and cold climates. I've been monitoring my battery capacity closely, but I haven't had the car long enough to say much about it. Knowing the type of records Tom kept for the MINI-E, I would expect him to be a good source of information in this regard.

 

[klaus]

Maybe that's why Nissan hasn't announced new EPA figures - maybe they're the same, or maybe they didn't even bother testing again (although it's usually not the EPA doing the testing as we all know now!)

 

[Parker]

Lots of Car Websites headlines over the past 24hrs state "i3 Range Extender Spec revealed ahead of Geneva" ...... and then go on to reveal absolutely nothing. When I saw the headlines I thought FINALLY some real info ..... but this last round of information doesn't even confirm the REx engine size ..... which I think has already been stated. Some of the web sites say only i3 Concepts will be a Geneva, others say the production car WILL be there. I hope the production car will be there – because if BMW leave it until Frankfurt most early adopters will have to order blind.....not great. One site does say that self parking and adaptive cruise will be standard.

Anyway ... a piece of useful info from the interview with the designer was that the i3 would be sub 4m (we knew that) have the internal space of a 3 Series (which was what I was waiting to hear - I thought as much because of the wheelbase@ 2.6m) and with material quality of a 5 Series.

 

[Northwestern]

Parker, I'm not sure why BMW would put premium content in a sub-4 meter car. It's already a stretch here in the US to convince someone they will be safe among the likes of SUVs and 5,000 lb.+ pick up trucks. This car will simply not sell in the US if it isn't priced right. I would rather walk than be forced to purchase adaptive cruise control and self parking.

 

[TomMoloughney]

Parker, I'm not sure why BMW would put premium content in a sub-4 meter car. It's already a stretch here in the US to convince someone they will be safe among the likes of SUVs and 5,000 lb.+ pick up trucks. This car will simply not sell in the US if it isn't priced right. I would rather walk than be forced to purchase adaptive cruise control and self parking.

The i3 coupe concept is 156 inches long, which is just about exactly 4 meters(3.96m). It's 10 inches longer than a MINI Cooper which sell pretty good in the US, albeit in a different price bracket entirely.

Don't know about the electronics being standard or as some kind of tech package. Looking at how BMW usually prices their cars I would suspect it will be optional. They usually offer a base car with low MSRP and then let you push up the price with the wanted goodies. Personally I absolutely want adaptive cruise control. It's probably the single biggest complaint from perspective Tesla buyers(the fact it's not offered) and way many people didn't buy it. There is a whole thread on this over at the Tesla owners forum: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7742-Cancelled-Model-S-order-bought-a-Plug-In-Prius
Self parking I could do without however.

 

[Northwestern]

Tom: I believe adaptive cruise control in the PIP is only available in the $39k model (Advanced) and not the base $32k model; I don't believe that if you want the ACC you can buy it as a separate option. As I remember, the PIP has $4,000 in CA credits available ($2,500 Fed and $1,500 state) so even with the credits if you want a PIP with ACC you are paying $35k for something that is about as fast as a sailboat. That said, for a while my local dealer was offering the base PIP model for (are you sitting down?) about $22,000 if you factor in the credits, zero-percent financing (I use 4% as the market rate), and another $4,000 cash discount. This tells me they are not moving at anywhere close to the MSRP. The Volt was supposed to sell 40,000 per year, sold about 23,000 last year and I believe had a 1,100/month in January. No EV is selling anywhere close to expectations except the Tesla. What am I saying? Just my opinion but I'm not alone in stating BMW better know what market price is needed to clear the market here in the US and including 'tronics as standard and not options may have consequences.

Given the Tesla Bluestar launch in calendar 2015 I think BMW needs to bring its "A" game here to the States. While I am interested in EVs to date I wouldn't give any of them a gentleman's C with the exception of Tesla (bad initial quality survey likely as I understand; quality-control is lacking). The i3 sticks out like a sore thumb (in a good way); I hope BMW prices it to sell or else I'll just keep my 25 mpg 328 gas hog.

 

[TomMoloughney]

Tom: I believe adaptive cruise control in the PIP is only available in the $39k model (Advanced) and not the base $32k model; I don't believe that if you want the ACC you can buy it as a separate option. As I remember, the PIP has $4,000 in CA credits available ($2,500 Fed and $1,500 state) so even with the credits if you want a PIP with ACC you are paying $35k for something that is about as fast as a sailboat. That said, for a while my local dealer was offering the base PIP model for (are you sitting down?) about $22,000 if you factor in the credits, zero-percent financing (I use 4% as the market rate), and another $4,000 cash discount. This tells me they are not moving at anywhere close to the MSRP. The Volt was supposed to sell 40,000 per year, sold about 23,000 last year and I believe had a 1,100/month in January. No EV is selling anywhere close to expectations except the Tesla. What am I saying? Just my opinion but I'm not alone in stating BMW better know what market price is needed to clear the market here in the US and including 'tronics as standard and not options may have consequences.

Given the Tesla Bluestar launch in calendar 2015 I think BMW needs to bring its "A" game here to the States. While I am interested in EVs to date I wouldn't give any of them a gentleman's C with the exception of Tesla (bad initial quality survey likely as I understand; quality-control is lacking). The i3 sticks out like a sore thumb (in a good way); I hope BMW prices it to sell or else I'll just keep my 25 mpg 328 gas hog.

The whole market is fighting a strong headwind, and in my opinion the lack of really good plug in cars combined with terrible marketing, poor sales force training and an election year where energy policy was used very strongly all conspired to slow sales of plug0ins. That said I am actually happy with how sales are moving along. Every year there is a large increase of sales of plug in cars. This isn't going to be a fast revolution, but a slow evolution. Tesla brought a car to market that people like. It's fast, sexy and has long range and it's selling very well so far even though it's VERY expensive. The i3 will be about $15,000 less that the least expensive Model S (Model S 40kW starts at $59,900 - my guess is the i3 starts at about $45,000) so there is a significant gap between the S and the i3 and there should be because the S is a full size car with a much larger battery.

Tesla has talked about the BlueStar in 2015, but they have always said late 2015 so in reality it's 2016 and that's IF they stay on schedule and IF they are even around in 2016. They have a long, long way to go to get in a good financial position.

I believe BMW is looking at selling about 30,000 i3's per year worldwide. I think that is a very attainable number. We'll see.

 

[evnow]

Parker, I'm not sure why BMW would put premium content in a sub-4 meter car. It's already a stretch here in the US to convince someone they will be safe among the likes of SUVs and 5,000 lb.+ pick up trucks. This car will simply not sell in the US if it isn't priced right. I would rather walk than be forced to purchase adaptive cruise control and self parking.

What is "premium" content changes over time. It used to be that BT was premium at some point.

I see a profound shift in the car buying habits in the last few years. Americans are buying compacts in great numbers - take a look at the aggregate numbers in WSJ.

I think I3 + range extender will sell well if priced well. By that I mean 10 to 15k vehicles a year in the US.

 

[TomMoloughney]

"if priced well" is important here(as it always is!)

I think if people can buy an i3 with some options(not completely loaded) and the range extender option for under 50K then it's going to sell pretty well. I think the majority of the first year of sales will be with the REx so hopefully it's not too expensive of an option.

 

[evnow]

I think if people can buy an i3 with some options(not completely loaded) and the range extender option for under 50K then it's going to sell pretty well.

Tom, What is your idea of "pretty well" ?

I'm beginning to think 1,000 to 1,500 is about what an EV can sell per month (in the US). Given the price, 1k is about the max i3 can sell (esp. given that a lot of well to do interested parties are bying S).

 

[TomMoloughney]

I think if people can buy an i3 with some options(not completely loaded) and the range extender option for under 50K then it's going to sell pretty well.

Tom, What is your idea of "pretty well" ?

I'm beginning to think 1,000 to 1,500 is about what an EV can sell per month (in the US). Given the price, 1k is about the max i3 can sell (esp. given that a lot of well to do interested parties are bying S).

Yep, right about there. I think if it's priced low enough then 15-17K per year. If the base model begins up close to 50K then that those numbers could be halved.

The Model S pricing begins at $61,070. That's a 40kWh, with no options and including final inspection, preparation and coordination. BMW has already said the i3 will cost less than a 5 Series which starts at about $58,000 so it's going to be at least $13,000 less and more likely $15,000 - $16,000 less so there is a considerable gap. I don't think you'll be able to even push an i3's price up to $60k even if you put every available option in it. Plus for 60K you don't even get Nav in the S, no adaptive cruise control(not an option on any S), no supercharging option and no premium sound. I think you'll be able to get all of these in an i3 for under 50K.

They are two completely different vehicles though and there will definitely be some crossover because they are both plug-ins, but I think the majority of people looking for an i3-type of car aren't those looking for a Model S type of car.

 

[evnow]

They are two completely different vehicles though and there will definitely be some crossover because they are both plug-ins, but I think the majority of people looking for an i3-type of car aren't those looking for a Model S type of car.

Since there are so few EVs available, all of them compete with each other. If the 40 kWh model had supercharging, I'd be very seriously considering one. So, I'm looking at Leaf ($30k) to S ($65k) - with i3, Infiniti LE in between.

BTW, there is one more EV i3 competes with - RAV 4 EV. With over 100 miles of range, Tesla provided drive train & $35k post tax credit (0% financed), it is a good buy.

 

[TomMoloughney]

Since there are so few EVs available, all of them compete with each other. If the 40 kWh model had supercharging, I'd be very seriously considering one. So, I'm looking at Leaf ($30k) to S ($65k) - with i3, Infiniti LE in between.

BTW, there is one more EV i3 competes with - RAV 4 EV. With over 100 miles of range, Tesla provided drive train & $35k post tax credit (0% financed), it is a good buy.

I agree the RAV4 EV good buy. If it had a 4wd option I would seriously be considering it although I know servicing it will be very difficult here on the East Coast. I spoke to Toyota reps at the LA Auto Show about out of state servicing and they gave me a very vague response about Tesla having to service the electric powertrain and I might have to have it shipped to CA so I just didn't follow up. It sounded like they didn't' even know what the procedure would be. Plus, I would really want it to have all wheel drive for me to really consider it.

It it was going to be offered everywhere and if Toyota was going to make more than the minimum and then stop (What is it 2,600?) then I would give it more thought and add it to the cars the i3 will compete with, but it's simply a short term compliance car and may even be sold out before the i3 is available here in the States anyway.