electrons
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:49 pm

Re: End of production

Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:29 am

eNate wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:35 am
electrons wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:13 am
For all the good attributes the i3 has, it was obsolete the day the Tesla Model 3 arrived (2017), at least in North America.
That's like saying the Toyota Yaris was obsolete because of the Corolla. They're different cars suited for different purposes.
They aren't that different. For somebody who wants a cool EV, & they only want to (or can) spend up to $38k, 90% of people would pick the Tesla, no doubt. From a sales & market-capture standpoint, the Tesla Model 3 EV took over the EV market, mostly to blame for the huge BMW i3 sales drop. Take a look at the sales figures & it's dramatic. The Model 3 also stole sales away from other luxury-performance models too, but the i3 was hit especially hard.

Both cars are used for commuting, shopping, & the Tesla can even be used on long trips with the hiway charger network and long range.
Tesla Model 3 stomps BMW i3. (For those who need something small for city parking, the i3 wins, the i3's only advantage.)

agzand
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:00 pm

Re: End of production

Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:54 am

electrons wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:29 am
eNate wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:35 am
electrons wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:13 am
For all the good attributes the i3 has, it was obsolete the day the Tesla Model 3 arrived (2017), at least in North America.
That's like saying the Toyota Yaris was obsolete because of the Corolla. They're different cars suited for different purposes.
They aren't that different. For somebody who wants a cool EV, & they only want to (or can) spend up to $38k, 90% of people would pick the Tesla, no doubt. From a sales & market-capture standpoint, the Tesla Model 3 EV took over the EV market, mostly to blame for the huge BMW i3 sales drop. Take a look at the sales figures & it's dramatic. The Model 3 also stole sales away from other luxury-performance models too, but the i3 was hit especially hard.

Both cars are used for commuting, shopping, & the Tesla can even be used on long trips with the hiway charger network and long range.
Tesla Model 3 stomps BMW i3. (For those who need something small for city parking, the i3 wins, the i3's only advantage.)
You assume everyone pays MSRP for the i3. In PZEV states you can lease an i3 for significantly less than the cheapest Tesla. The US MSRP for i3 is ridiculous. In Europe it is significantly cheaper than a Model 3. In general for any BMW in US market you should either lease or buy used/CPO.

electrons
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:49 pm

Re: End of production

Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:11 pm

agzand wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:19 am
The carbon fiber structure is lighter, but more expensive. It doesn't make sense for a regular price car. But many super cars have a carbon fiber structure. So it is superior from a technical standpoint. The Mini EV is a good example, it weighs the same with 3/4 battery size and 2 fewer doors.

BMW has not abandoned carbon fiber entirely, the iX uses carbon fiber cage (one of the reasons I think it will be the best EV in the market, period). So does the 7 series.

https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2020 ... odynamics/
Great post! Yes, we engineers are concerned about cost, due to obvious MBA-degreed marketing-types running around most companies. It matters.
And composites can be more expensive. The way BMW was doing it, they DID manage to make money on the i3, partly due to efficient manufacturing, but mostly saved by great European sales figures to get the volume up.

I will disagree with your "superior from a technical standpoint" statement. Carbon composites have been around since 1981 in aerospace applications, and it is largely because of minimal crush (crash forces) requirements & also the more fully monocoque & cantilever structures are better suited for the isotropic (directional) strength properties of carbon fiber.

Now compare that with an i3 body, which has large door openings & crash crush requirements. That is mostly the reason why Steel-Al car bodies can equal it. Steel-Al can also be shaped & optimized using advanced algorithms (think Barto-Sutton AI algorithms like used in AlphaGo) in finite element programs, as GM & Honda have led the way in. It's the reason why the Chevy Bolt is that good structurally.

As for your excellent citation of: https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2020 ... odynamics/ , that article, about the year-away BMW iX, is what BMW wishes they would have done for the i3 back in 2013 !!
Notice carbon fiber, in the iX, is only making sense for limited usage in those areas where isotropic materials can be used for strength in select areas.

BMW's big blunder in recent history is NOT doing the selective smart usage of carbon fiber (they're now doing for the BMW iX) in the i3.

Everybody should read https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2020 ... odynamics/ cited by agzand, and think how easy it would have been to do that around 2012 or so for the BMW i3.
Last edited by electrons on Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

electrons
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:49 pm

Re: End of production

Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:23 pm

agzand wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:54 am
You assume everyone pays MSRP for the i3. In PZEV states you can lease an i3 for significantly less than the cheapest Tesla. The US MSRP for i3 is ridiculous. In Europe it is significantly cheaper than a Model 3. In general for any BMW in US market you should either lease or buy used/CPO.
I generally agree with that. Used BMW i3's are a great deal.

It is amazing how much people are still paying for new base (no options) BMW i3's in Colorado. Not MSRP of course. Market price is only $3k less than MSRP here.
Most folks don't want a tiny dorky box with low EV range for $42k ($35k with Fed rebate). The ones that pass it up don't get that it's fun to drive, or think enough of that to make them buy it. Add a couple of options, or pick an "S" sport model i3s, and it's a Tesla Model 3 $39k price quickly.
All that explains why they have to do amazing lease deals to move i3's at all.

Image

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MKH
Gold Member
Posts: 783
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:48 am
Location: Dallas

Re: End of production

Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:10 pm

Tesla Model 3 stomps BMW i3.
Different customers.

On top of that the Model 3 is even worse than the Mini as far as reliability issues are concerned. Green Car Reports wrote that Model 3 “build quality was the worst we have seen on any new car from any maker over the last 10 years”. A report in the Los Angeles Times noted similar feedback from owners.

Build quality is huge issue - one reviewer compared the Model 3's build quality to that of Kia's when they first entered the market. Misaligned body panels are common as is thin and badly applied bubbled paint. Many Model 3's also arrives fresh from the factory with body rust coming through the paint on doors and door sills - in other words the car was rusty before it got painted..

A list of common Model 3 issues are:
Blurry backup camera
Rust
Touchscreen failure
Paint finish
Door, window, and trunk defects
Shutdown while driving
Locked out of car (no metal key) . Example - if your 12v fails, you can't open the door, or the hood.

And since you order your car sight unseen - you get what you get, warts and all. You do have a 7 day return window, or you can choose to have the car 'repaired' at a regional Tesla repair center (one of the reasons for the months long wait for Tesla service). So many were returning their Model 3s in that 7 day window and trying again, that Tesla made it a rule if you returned your new i3 for build quality defects, you weren't allowed to order another Tesla for a year.

The repair network for Tesla is poor. No dealer to go to, only regional repair shops, which are mostly swamped and backed up. Waiting several months just for parts to arrive for a repair is not uncommon, and though they provide some loaner cars, there aren't near enough of them to come close to meeting customer demand.
Last edited by MKH on Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mark H.
2015 i3 Rex, Capparis White, Tera World, Technology & Driving Assistant, Parking Assistant, Harman Kardon Audio System, 19 inch 427 wheels, EVoInnovate EVSE

agzand
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:00 pm

Re: End of production

Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:17 pm

electrons wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:23 pm
agzand wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:54 am
You assume everyone pays MSRP for the i3. In PZEV states you can lease an i3 for significantly less than the cheapest Tesla. The US MSRP for i3 is ridiculous. In Europe it is significantly cheaper than a Model 3. In general for any BMW in US market you should either lease or buy used/CPO.
I generally agree with that. Used BMW i3's are a great deal.

It is amazing how much people are still paying for new base (no options) BMW i3's in Colorado. Not MSRP of course. Market price is only $3k less than MSRP here.
Most folks don't want a tiny dorky box with low EV range for $42k ($35k with Fed rebate). The ones that pass it up don't get that it's fun to drive, or think enough of that to make them buy it. Add a couple of options, or pick an "S" sport model i3s, and it's a Tesla Model 3 $39k price quickly.
All that explains why they have to do amazing lease deals to move i3's at all.

Image
Often there has been $11k corporate discount for the i3. That brings down the price to mid $20s for the well optioned cars. I agree there is no reason to purchase the i3 unless you can get that sort of discount.

alohart
Posts: 2330
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:36 pm
Location: Honolulu, HI

Re: End of production

Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:42 pm

electrons wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:29 am
For somebody who wants a cool EV, & they only want to (or can) spend up to $38k, 90% of people would pick the Tesla, no doubt.
Maybe I choose cars for odd reasons, but I would never consider buying a Model 3 because of its size, weight, and body style. For those who want a compact hatchback EV, an i3 would be chosen over a Model 3. I don't care whether the prices are similar.
Aloha,
Art

2014 BMW i3 Arravani Grey, Giga World, Tech + Driving Assist, Parking Assist, DC Fast Charging, JuiceBox EVSE

Pahaska
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:49 am

Re: End of production

Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:14 pm

I meet Tesla Model 3's most days. At a distance, I think it is just another cheap economy car. As it passes, I realize it is a Tesla. To me, they are uninspiring old-school designs to the eye. Inside, I hate the oversize display of info that should be up in front of the eyes and the cheap-looking dash. Tesla has great technology and blah cars.

I never get tired of the I3. It is not a perfect car, but it never ceases to impress me.

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MKH
Gold Member
Posts: 783
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:48 am
Location: Dallas

Re: End of production

Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:28 am

Maybe I choose cars for odd reasons, but I would never consider buying a Model 3 because of its size, weight, and body style. For those who want a compact hatchback EV, an i3 would be chosen over a Model 3. I don't care whether the prices are similar.
I think this applies to a lot of i3 owners, myself included. :D
Mark H.
2015 i3 Rex, Capparis White, Tera World, Technology & Driving Assistant, Parking Assistant, Harman Kardon Audio System, 19 inch 427 wheels, EVoInnovate EVSE

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