Dealer Level 2 charger vs Juicebox 40

[MARKSDCA]

I was lucky enough to be treated very hospitably by the sales team at BMW of Murrieta this past weekend. They let me plug into one of their chargers while I was out to lunch with friends. I charged my i3 for exactly 2 hours. I had come from San Diego and actually used the REX for about the last 8 miles as the trip was quite far.

I can't recall which charger brand they had but my Juicebox 40 at home will charge a minimum of 25 miles each hour. This dealer charger did 38 miles in 2 hours. It just made me realize that all Level 2 chargers must not be the same. 38 vs 50 is a big number....especially if you are in need of all the miles you can get in a short time.

Maybe somebody here can explain the difference between chargers...is it just the watts or amps of the Juicebox being higher? I'm curious because I've heard that some level 2 chargers run at about 6000 watts rather than the 7200 that the i3 can use as a max. Thanks in advance for the insight.

 

[lucycan]

Good topic. I was looking at this charger. I see at 7.7kW max that should be ideal for the i3.

http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40p-32a-240v-charging-25-cord-nema-14-50-plug

My electrician wants about $300 to run the plug. So for less than $1k I am set and upgradeable (plug in vs hard wired).

 

[MARKSDCA]

Good topic. I was looking at this charger. I see at 7.7kW max that should be ideal for the i3.

http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40p-32a-240v-charging-25-cord-nema-14-50-plug

My electrician wants about $300 to run the plug. So for less than $1k I am set and upgradeable (plug in vs hard wired).

My Juicebox was $505 delivered. I didn't have to pay sales tax as it was shipped outside of California. I also had a 5% discount coupon code. I also went for the 20 foot cord which was a little cheaper than the stock 24" cord. The cord is still too long for setup. I put the outlet high on the wall and ran the box and the cord in the overhead storage area above my car. The charger plug hangs down just a few feet away from the charging port on the car....it's really great. Much better than running on the floor.

I looked at the Clipper Creek but the Juicebox had the nifty android app which monitors the charging and allows you to program the charging time. It works through my home WiFi system....very cool!! (there's an antenna on the Juicebox that communicates to the WiFi)

 

[lucycan]

Which JuiceBox did you get? Are they all hard wired?

Whats the benefit of programming the charging time? To take advantage of cheaper, off peak, electric?

 

[jadnashuanh]

On an i3, it really doesn't matter if the EVSE is larger than the i3 can charge and this is true for any vehicle...the EVSE sends out a signal telling the attached vehicle how much power it can provide, and the vehicle uses up to the max it can, or the max announced by the EVSE, whichever is lower.

The supply voltage does make a difference. If the supply voltage is say 208, which is common on many commercial units, and it can provide 30A, that's only 6240W, a lot less than the i3 can handle. But, say you're supplying it with 245vac (like where I live), using the same 30A, that's 7350W, or almost 18% more. The i3 can use up to 7400W.

So, it depends on the EVSE's capacity AND its input voltage...the amount of amps will remain the same on a unit that is provided with 208vac or 240vac, but the watts available will differ.

There's a limit on how high of a voltage the i3 can take (don't remember what that is), but the i3's charging circuit can handle all of the commonly available ones.

Now, if you want a fast recharge, then move the power supply outside of the vehicle and feed it lots of high-voltage DCV...that's what a CCS unit is, and that technically IS a charging device. That's also why they are cost lots more than an EVSE - they're a variable voltage, high current DC power supply with smarts. The EVSE is essentially a smart on/off switch (or extension cord, if you will), and the charger is IN the car. On the Nissan Leaf, they have (or at least had) an optional, larger on-board charging device, but the 'standard' option was only 3.7Kw, half of the i3's - and, it has a larger battery. I think the one in the MB is larger than the i3's, and Teslas definitely is (but, their battery pack is over 3x as large).

A level 1 EVSE uses 120vac, a level 2 unit uses over 200vac. Some people call a CCS unit a level 3, but that's incorrect.

 

[MARKSDCA]

Which JuiceBox did you get? Are they all hard wired?

Whats the benefit of programming the charging time? To take advantage of cheaper, off peak, electric?

I'm not sure about all of their products but I was only interested in the kind that you can take with you....so I got the Juicebox 40 Pro with the Wifi app and a NEMA 14-50 plug which is apparently the same outlet used by RV parks.

Yes, SDG&E offers a really great deal for solar producers. In the summer months May-Oct between noon and 6pm they will credit (or charge) you about 52 cents for the net kWh that you pump into the grid. Other times they charge (or credit) from 18 cents to 23 cents. So IF you can avoid using the big appliances and charging the car between noon and 6pm...you can get back 2.5 times the amount of power that you donate. So if I over produce let's say 20 kWh in the summer afternoons I will be able to use almost 50 kWh overnight for free. Actually...the lowest tier is 18 cents for midnight to 5am. Therefore having the programmable charger to delay the charging until midnight is a huge plus. You can plug it in anytime you want but it won't charge until midnight. You can override that from the smartphone if you need to charge your car before midnight.

They still pay the same 4 cents per kWh for any over production at your annual true-up period. When I first heard about the EV TOU program I thought they were giving you 52 cents back...in cash. If that were the case I think people would be over building their systems by leaps and bounds~~!!

 

[MARKSDCA]

On an i3, it really doesn't matter if the EVSE is larger than the i3 can charge and this is true for any vehicle...the EVSE sends out a signal telling the attached vehicle how much power it can provide, and the vehicle uses up to the max it can, or the max announced by the EVSE, whichever is lower.

The supply voltage does make a difference. If the supply voltage is say 208, which is common on many commercial units, and it can provide 30A, that's only 6240W, a lot less than the i3 can handle. But, say you're supplying it with 245vac (like where I live), using the same 30A, that's 7350W, or almost 18% more. The i3 can use up to 7400W.

So, it depends on the EVSE's capacity AND its input voltage...the amount of amps will remain the same on a unit that is provided with 208vac or 240vac, but the watts available will differ.

There's a limit on how high of a voltage the i3 can take (don't remember what that is), but the i3's charging circuit can handle all of the commonly available ones.

Now, if you want a fast recharge, then move the power supply outside of the vehicle and feed it lots of high-voltage DCV...that's what a CCS unit is, and that technically IS a charging device. That's also why they are cost lots more than an EVSE - they're a variable voltage, high current DC power supply with smarts. The EVSE is essentially a smart on/off switch (or extension cord, if you will), and the charger is IN the car. On the Nissan Leaf, they have (or at least had) an optional, larger on-board charging device, but the 'standard' option was only 3.7Kw, half of the i3's - and, it has a larger battery. I think the one in the MB is larger than the i3's, and Teslas definitely is (but, their battery pack is over 3x as large).

A level 1 EVSE uses 120vac, a level 2 unit uses over 200vac. Some people call a CCS unit a level 3, but that's incorrect.

Thanks for the detailed explanation...that makes total sense. With all of the cars around a BMW dealer lot these days I would expect that the dealer might want either DC fast chargers or the absolute highest voltage Level 2 system that they can find....

 

[jadnashuanh]

A level 2 unit installed is probably in the order of a couple of grand to the dealer and the feds still have some credits available, making that almost free. But, the smallest CCS unit costs in the order of $9k for just the unit, and one that can max out the i3 is over $25, and it requires three phase, high voltage off of the transformer which many places do not have, or if they do, it's not in a convenient location. Just running wire to where you want it could easily cost $10K. As a result, we're not seeing many of them show up, yet. Government and vehicle manufacturers are working somewhat together to make some happen, but until there's more EVs around, the free market will need to think twice about whether there's a way to pay back the substantial costs. A CCS unit could use over 50Kw over an hour. An EVSE, about 7.5Kw, so the energy costs are part of it, too. If heavily used and free, it's a big cost. An EVSE could bring in more business at a restaurant or mall or other location to justify it as simply a marketing tool as it tends to make it more likely to keep the shopper there longer which often equates to them spending more money...20-30 minutes on a CCS unit isn't all that much time...maybe a cup of coffee and a sandwich, but not a sit down, multi-course meal or trolling the mall.