i3's about as eco-friendly as...?

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kc1

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
63
Location
London, UK
Apparently a Tesla Model S was tested in Singapore's Emission Test Laboratory and was determined to be equally damaging to the environment as cars with an internal combustion engine that emits between 216-230 grams of CO2 per kilometre (because they rated it with a "grid emission factor of 0.5 g CO2/Wh" to account for the 444 watt hours per kilometre of electric energy consumption including the charging).

According to these guys thats "...about as eco-friendly as high-performance, gasoline-burning models like the Audi RS 7, the Mercedes-AMG GT S, and the Porsche Cayenne S."

Made me wonder what our i3s are equivalent to when we include the energy consumed to charge the batteries.

Anyone know the i3's grid emission factor/ overall CO2 rating incl consumption for charging?
 
You can easily calculate that yourself. My i3 shows over the 13000 miles I'm at 4.4miles per kWh which works out to be 227whr/ mile or if you want to take it to kilometers as the article was in metric. It'll be 142whr/km. Multiply by the same co2 factor. And maybe add 20 percent for charging inefficiency and you'll get a very enviable carbon footprint. And if you live in the great state of Illinois where 1/2 our power comes from nuclear you'll get even less carbon footprint, but you might have to deal with plutonium footprint lol
 
The Teslas are not highly economical electric vehicles. They are large, fast, and relatively heavy.

The EPA gives a Tesla combined fuel economy of 33kWh per 100 miles, and the i3 BEV gets 27kWh per 100 miles. That's 22% more energy use for the Tesla over the same distance using the EPA's test procedures.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=37216&id=36126

In either case, supplying an electric car with renewable sourced electricity eliminates ongoing CO2 consumption. The i3 uses way less CO2 during production of the vehicle than the Tesla as well.
 
Hi guys,

the Co2 production per kWh seems about right, but a consumption figure of 444Wh/km seems ludicrous. Even if it is a Tesla P90D. Something must have gone wrong in the 'emissions' test.

Regards, Steven
 
There are other options, for example:

- sign up with a green (or greener) energy supplier - at least this means you support cleaner energy, despite where the electrons come from that are supplied to your home EVSE
- decide to buy a PV system or wind turbine to offset part of your energy requirements. Still undecided on that Harman Kardon system or those fancy wheels for £1k ? Why not put the money towards solar panels?

EVs are complex. Simply driving one does not make you greener per se, but it does help with tailpipe emissions.
 
Even if the overall emissions for moving you around was less, using an EV definitely helps to preserve the air in dense, city environments. Power plants tend to be not located in city centers, but there are often, lots of vehicles, many of them spewing their emissions into the air which may not move much due to the buildings, etc. This is one reason China is now pushing hybrid and EV cars...their cities are a major health hazard.
 
It seems to me that a key factor about the cited incident is that it's Singapore—a relatively small city-state so the authorities can calculate the CO2 cost of its electricity readily. The same calculations in larger countries with more complex grids wouldn't be so easy or reliable. Personally, I think such a calculation is pointless. Even if you live in an area where all electricity comes from coal-fired plants so an EV mile/KM produces about the same CO2 as an ICE mile/KM, driving an EV is preferable because the pollution would be at a single source that's more easily managed.
 
SO THE PROBLEM IS WITH DIRTY COAL...NOT THE ELECTRIC CAR..... IT'S IMPORTANT TO GET THE FINGER OF BLAME POINTING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION ON THIS MATTER.

I don't believe we are still having this debate. There is a wealth of evidence out there that shows EV are at least 50% cleaner that comparable conventional cars when the full well to wheel fuel pathways are properly accounted for

The “Life Cycle: Environmental Certificate Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric Drive” compared the petrol powered B180 with the Electric Drive version. It looked at carbon and other environmental impacts of vehicle production, fuel production (electricity and gasoline), operation and recycling across a projected vehicle life of 160,000km. Using a European Union electricity grid mix, total operational carbon emissions for the all-electric car was 11.9tonnes/vehicle(t/v) compared to 23.8t/v in the conventional B-180: a 50% reduction. Significantly, within the 23.8t/v carbon output of the conventional B-180, 3.8 tonnes was NOT attributed to tail pipe emissions but to carbon emissions associated with the production of petrol for the proposed 160,000km travelled. This study also demonstrated that, if the B-Class all-electric was charged exclusively from a renewable energy source (hydro in this scenario) total operational carbon emissions were a minuscule 0.2t/v for 160,000km travelled. This is less than one hundredth of the 29.3t/vehicle for the petrol powered B-180.

Just as powerfully, in 2011 Renault undertook a comparative life cycle analysis of the environmental impacts across three versions of its medium-sized Renault Fluence: the 1.6litre 16V petrol, the 1.5litre dCi diesel and the all-electric version, the Fluence Z.E.. The results closely mirrored those of the Mercedes-Benz analysis. In the Renault analysis, as with Mercedes-Benz, the electric version had a greater carbon footprint in the manufacturing phase however this was quickly offset during the 150,000km operational life of the study. By the end of life, including recycling and disposal, the electric variant demonstrated total carbon emissions of 20t/vehicle if driven in the UK and only 11t/vehicle if powered in France, where nuclear energy predominates. Comparatively, the diesel and petrol variants produced up to 200% more CO2 emissions over the nominated 150,000km of the study, at 25t/vehicle for the diesel and 34t/vehicle for the petrol. With both fossil-fuel powered Fluence models weighing in the vicinity of 1200kg each, it is calculated that the diesel Fluence pumped 20 times its weight of carbon into the atmosphere while the petrol version pumped 28 times its weight of carbon into the atmosphere, over the 150,000km life cycle of the Renault study.

The Mercedes-Benz and Renault studies are valuable in that they both compare identical vehicles with the only variation being the powertrain. These studies were completed independently of each other and yet have both clearly demonstrated through rigorous processes that cars with internal combustion engines produce between 100% and 200% more carbon emissions than the equivalent battery electric vehicle over their full life cycles. Of course additional mileage, beyond the projected 150,000 and 160,000km parameters of these studies, brings even greater environmental advantage to the all-electric car over the comparable fossil-fuel powered car. Furthermore, the benefits of the battery electric car only improve as electricity grids worldwide transition more and more to emissions free renewable energy sources.

In summary, even if an electric car is charged completely from a dirty, coal-fired power source, it still reduces carbon emissions significantly in comparison to conventional vehicles and there is now a wealth of rigorous scientific evidence, much of it from car manufacturers themselves (like the two studies above), to validate this. Any comparison must take into account the sourcing, refinement, generation and distribution of the primary energy sources, along the full ‘well-to-wheel’ pathways and this includes emission outputs of ALL electricity generation through out this process. It takes about 1kWh of electricity to refine each litre of petrol and this electricity is usually sourced from dirty coal generation, but that never seems to be accounted for or even spoken of. In reality the conventional car has many more ‘long tail pipes’ of pollution than an all-electric car. The problems of emissions lie with the relatively inefficient internal combustion engine and the dirty coal produced electricity usually used to refine petroleum - not the electric car. It is important to get the ‘finger of blame’ pointing in the right direction on this matter. The problem is with dirty coal- not the electric car.

But even if one was to ignore any arguments about comparative emissions, the all-electric car is still financially more cost effective over time, reduces dependence upon limited, often imported oil resources, and uses local sources for its energy. Emissions reduction is not the only motivator or benefit to driving an all-electric car. No matter which way it is compared, the all-electric car wins hands down when it comes to reduction of carbon emissions - not to mention the many other benefits. Maybe the ‘tail pipe’ or ‘exhaust pipe’ should be called for what it is: a pollution pipe.
 
Just to add a little further information: UK power generation is not "coal dominated". In 2015, only around 25% of UK electricity came from coal. The largest single generation source was gas (29%), which has a lower carbon load, then nuclear (22%), wind (8%) and bio (4%). This ignores the contribution from PV, which is not centrally measured.
 
Thanks Phil,
I will rectify that about the UK electricity mix. I made an assumption on that matter, based upon historical impressions from the other side of the world. I only wish I could say the same about the Australian electricity mix.
 
Lithiumman said:
Thanks Phil,
I will rectify that about the UK electricity mix. I made an assumption on that matter, based upon historical impressions from the other side of the world. I only wish I could say the same about the Australian electricity mix.

Hi Phil and Lithiumman

We're all on the same side of the argument here, I think.

I also keep mentioning to people how much more efficient an EV is. People are always surprised when I tell them that the energy equivalent of a fully charged i3 is only about 3 litres of Diesel. At the same time, they are also stunned when I tell them that the same battery pack -when fully charged- could provide my house with 3 days worth of electricity. The latter demonstrating how much energy is required for transport.
 
So the i3 is produced in a factory that generates more energy using wind.

Its battery pack is the smallest and its efficiency highest at 5 mi / kWh.

And I still get reactionary idiots pretending it is worst than an H2.

Common sense... not so common.

kc1 said:
Apparently a Tesla Model S was tested in Singapore's Emission Test Laboratory and was determined to be equally damaging to the environment as cars with an internal combustion engine that emits between 216-230 grams of CO2 per kilometre (because they rated it with a "grid emission factor of 0.5 g CO2/Wh" to account for the 444 watt hours per kilometre of electric energy consumption including the charging).

According to these guys thats "...about as eco-friendly as high-performance, gasoline-burning models like the Audi RS 7, the Mercedes-AMG GT S, and the Porsche Cayenne S."

Made me wonder what our i3s are equivalent to when we include the energy consumed to charge the batteries.

Anyone know the i3's grid emission factor/ overall CO2 rating incl consumption for charging?
 
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