Technical Questions about chargers

[carbonblackcab]

Hi,

I pre-ordered the i3 and am doing my research on chargers and how the work. I am planning on getting the 220V fast charger. In Florida, the rate for electricity is lowest from 10 PM to 6 AM. It is highest during the day.

Can the BMW charger be programmed to turn on at specific hour?
Also, can the BMW charger be used to charge a Tesla or Ford EV? (i.e are the plugs that go into the car universal)

 

[Jkoeller]

Careful that you don't put '220V' and 'fast charger' together as they each have different meaning (and much different price-points). The 220 charger is generally called a Level-2 (L2) charger, where a fast-charger is a Level-3 (L3) DC fast-charger. An L3 charger charges *very* fast if you purchase the i3 with the fast-charger option, but you wouldn't install the L3 charger at your house, as it costs well above $10,000 to install. The 110 charger that comes with the i3 is considered a Level-1 (L1).

As for scheduled charging, that's actually configured from the EV (or from the smart-phone app for the EV). In the i3's case, it's configured through the BMW i Remote App. You can read more about it in this link. Click the '+' to the left of the 'Vehicle Status' title in the Remote App section where it speaks to this specifically.

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/i/i3/2013/showroom/connectivity.html

 

[carbonblackcab]

Thanks for the info Jkoeller.

I was referring tot he L2 charger.

BTW, walked past Tesla showroom at the mall earlier today and asked the sales person about the timing of the charge and he said that it is something you can set in the car (or app) where you choose the timing of when charging starts.

 

[dennis]

There are also some EVSEs that can be configured for delayed charging, but it is somewhat redundant with most EVs.

If you decide to go with a hardwired L2 EVSE, the one that BMW makes for the i3 is very aesthetically pleasing. However, I would suggest installing a NEMA 6-50 or 14-50 socket and purchasing an EVSE that plugs into one or the other socket. This ends up being a future-proofed and less expensive solution than most hardwired EVSEs.

Aerovironment makes a 6.6 kw charger that works well (I have my mother using one with her 2013 Leaf) and Leviton makes a 10kw charger that works well with other cars (but has been incompatible with the Active E, this does not mean that it will be incompatible with the i3, however.)...

The creative solution would be to purchase the J1772 converted Model S MC from Tony Williams, this gives you the flexibility of the Model S Mobile Connector and delivers power from 110 all the way to 40A (10kw) depending on the type of socket you use. This is how I primarily charge my Active E now that I have three cars to plug in at home and the Active E has been kicked out of the garage. This method works well and allows me to purchase inexpensive adapters to plug into many different kinds of US AC outlets.

Lastly, check with your tax advisor, the US Federal credit for installation of EV Charging facilities expires on 12/31/2013. This provides up to $1,000 credit for a residential EV Charger install. (Commercial ones are up to $30,000 capped at 30% of the cost to do the install.)

 

[carbonblackcab]

can the bmw or other chargers be mounted outdoors? i.e can the charger be exposed to the rain, heat, humidity?

also, how long can the cable that connects the charger and the i3 be? i.e what is the max length?

In my townhouse, I have a 1 car garage and 1 parking spot outside. I am keeping my C2S inside the garage and the i3 will be outside. It would be great if the charger can be mounted outside my house.

 

[dennis]

can the bmw or other chargers be mounted outdoors? i.e can the charger be exposed to the rain, heat, humidity?

also, how long can the cable that connects the charger and the i3 be? i.e what is the max length?

In my townhouse, I have a 1 car garage and 1 parking spot outside. I am keeping my C2S inside the garage and the i3 will be outside. It would be great if the charger can be mounted outside my house.

Most L2 EVSEs are now indoor/outdoor, though there are still some indoor only EVSE. The BMW one has had marketing documents that have shown an exterior lay mounted one.

 

[Bunter]

Someone here said that the BMW fast charger (level 2 in your terms) requires a shelter if outside. Other fast chargers don't. The charge rate terminology here (UK) is normal (meaning 8 to 10 hours which I guess is level 1), fast (meaning 3 to 4 hours, level 2) and rapid (meaning 30 minutes off a DC supply, level 3).

Regards

Bill

 

[i3me]

Some info to clear up the charging level information jungle:

http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf

 

[neilmac]

Someone here said that the BMW fast charger (level 2 in your terms) requires a shelter if outside.

I saw that quote too, and so asked my dealer. He said it could be mounted outside just fine*. And frankly if it'll work outside in Scottish weather -- it'll be fine anywhere else on the planet.

[* Caveat: Dealers are not always right]

 

[Plug]

Yeah, seems that was incorrect about it needing to be covered.

David just had one installed outside : http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=402

 

[Davidfromdigswell]

I was also worried that it required shelter which in my case would have involved about an extra 90 foot run of cable to a sheltered position by the front door. Luckily this wasn't necessary as I was assured by the installer that the unit is 100% weatherproof.

 

[cwerdna]

Fixed your post, you're using the word "charger" in many cases where you mean EVSE. For J1772 L1 and L2 AC charging, the charger is on-board the car. The external unit, either permanent or mobile, and even 120 volt "trickle charge" cable are all EVSEs for L1 and L2 AC charging, NOT chargers.

Careful that you don't put '220V' and 'fast charger' together as they each have different meaning (and much different price-points). The 240 volt EVSE is generally called a Level-2 (L2) EVSE, where a fast-charger is a Level-3 (L3) DC fast-charger. An L3 charger charges *very* fast if you purchase the i3 with the fast-charger option, but you wouldn't install the L3 charger at your house, as it costs well above $10,000 to install. The 120 volt EVSE that comes with the i3 is considered a Level-1 (L1).

I won't go into the whole L3 use/misuse...

See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14728&p=332668#p332668 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=262630#p262630.

Charging speed is influenced by several factors such as line voltage, max output of the EVSE, max draw and output of the car's on-board charger, etc.

For example, if you plugged in a an '11 or '12 Leaf, '13 Leaf SV or SL and a '12+ Rav4 EV into this 40 amp EVSE (http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=EVB40-PST&section=37741&minisite=10251) running at 208 or 240 volts, the '11 or '12 Leaf would charge the slowest (in terms of energy making it in the battery for a given time) since it has only a 3.3 kW on-board charger. '13 Leaf would be faster as it has a 6 kW OBC. '12+ Rav4 EV is fastest because it has a 10 kW OBC.

Even the Rav4 EV (and Tesla Model S, which comes standard w/a 10 kW OBC) charging at 40 amps @ 240 volts is NOT considered "fast charging".

You are correct that DC fast chargers are extremely expensive for the hardware alone and nobody would have one at home. The cheapest DC FC I know if is Nissan's CHAdeMO DC FC (for $15.5K for hardware only) and that isn't compatible w/an i3, which won't have CHAdeMO outside Japan.

And for DC fast charging, the charger is NOT on-board the car and resides in a unit external to the car.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=332063#p332063 mentions

Information provided by Nissan at Plugin 2013 indicates average cost for hardware and installation at dealers for the DC FC is $49K.

Dennis below has it correct.

There are also some EVSEs that can be configured for delayed charging, but it is somewhat redundant with most EVs.

If you decide to go with a hardwired L2 EVSE, the one that BMW makes for the i3 is very aesthetically pleasing. However, I would suggest installing a NEMA 6-50 or 14-50 socket and purchasing an EVSE that plugs into one or the other socket. This ends up being a future-proofed and less expensive solution than most hardwired EVSEs....

 

[Muhv]

Is it possible for someone to post an installation manual for the Wallbox Pure, here? That would help to clear some questions concearning wirening etc.

 

[ChrisC]

Fixed your post, you're using the word "charger" in many cases where you mean EVSE.

I tilted at that windmill for a little while as well. You should just go ahead and give up on that, that battle's over, everyone calls them chargers. I just call them chargers now myself.

I won't go into the whole L3 use/misuse...

You might want to give up on that too

One thing I do discourage is the use of the phrases "fast charging" or "quick charging" by themselves. For some people (and corporate PR operations) that means Level 2, for some it means DC. If you mean DC fast charging (aka DC quick charging) then say so. Always put the "DC" in there if that's what you mean.

And welcome to the forum

 

[cwerdna]

Fixed your post, you're using the word "charger" in many cases where you mean EVSE.

I tilted at that windmill for a little while as well. You should just go ahead and give up on that, that battle's over, everyone calls them chargers. I just call them chargers now myself.

You shouldn't and I definitely will not. Who is "everyone"? Any serious EV enthusiast who isn't a newbie doesn't make such mistakes. (I've been following the Leaf since 2010 or so (before they shipped and even test drove them before they went on sale) and finally got one earlier this year.)

It is important to understand the difference. As I said, it can make the lead to multi-thousand dollar mistakes of buying the wrong car, wrong equipment level, wrong EVSE, etc. and could lead to overspending.

NO EV driver should "give up" and resort to calling EVSEs "chargers". Seriously. Perpetuating it only leads to more people getting confused and the wrong idea.

One thing I do discourage is the use of the phrases "fast charging" or "quick charging" by themselves. For some people (and corporate PR operations) that means Level 2, for some it means DC. If you mean DC fast charging (aka DC quick charging) then say so. Always put the "DC" in there if that's what you mean.

And welcome to the forum

Yes, it irks me that folks who have vehicles that have NO DC fast charging (e.g. Plug-in Prius, I'm a huge Prius fan myself) will refer to 208-240 volt charging as "fast charging". The PiP has a small battery capacity, comes w/a L1 120 volt EVSE and doesn't take very long to charge at 120 volts anyways. So they incorrectly refer to "quick charging" or "fast charging". :roll: They know nothing about DC fast charging, CHAdeMO, J1772/Mennekes CCS, Tesla Supercharger, etc.

Thanks!

Side note: I noticed the page in your sig. I disagree about "charge port on driver’s side of car". It should be in the front and center like the Leaf.

At my work, the way the EVSEs and parking spots in some locations at my work (3 J1772 handles and a 120 volt outlet across 2 pedestals), there's a leftmost parking spot that's reachable w/a Leaf to the EVSE to the right of it (provided Leaf isn't parked too far back in the spot). It is NOT reachable by a Volt, even if they back in. (A Model S in that spot can reach it, if it backs in).

They also sometimes have to back into the other spots to use an adjacent J1772 handle. I even briefly spoke to another guy a w/Volt at my work and he felt that front center is the best place.

 

[znino]

If you decide to go with a hardwired L2 EVSE, the one that BMW makes for the i3 is very aesthetically pleasing. However, I would suggest installing a NEMA 6-50 or 14-50 socket and purchasing an EVSE that plugs into one or the other socket. This ends up being a future-proofed and less expensive solution than most hardwired EVSEs.

Dennis, (pardon my questions if they seem obvious)

I currently have, in my garage a 14-50 socket on a dedicated circuit with a 50A breaker. From your post it seems that to charge the i3 I could buy an external level 2 charger that would simply plug into my existing socket and charge at a decent rate? So it doesn't have to be BMW's wall charger? With 240V and 40A, how many km (or miles) per hour would be pumped back into the i3? and what type of connection does the car expect? Is it a standard J1772?

Does the 240V L2 EVSE charger that BMW make absolutely need to be connected directly to the electric circuit? What I mean is I assume it expects the wiring from the panel to come and connect to it somewhere in the back directly.... BUT, would it be possible to somehow instead "plug" the BMW L2 EVSE into the 14-50 wall eceptacle that I already have? Or have an electrician essentially build a Male 14-50 plug that would be connected to the BMW L2 EVSE and that male plug would plug into my 14-50 receptacle? I already have the electricity coming from my panel to the 14-50 plug. Seems a waste to tear it open to get the actual wires and connect them to the wall charger.

 

[achimha]

You need a type 2 wallbox, the brand doesn't matter. It should be a 22kW model of which the i3 can use max 7.4kW because it only support single phase charging (3x7.4 = 22). You also need the fast charging option in your i3, otherwise it will be limited to 3.7kW for which you can use the included 230V charger. 7.4kW is 32A at 230V.

The battery has about 20kW and it takes about 3.5h to fully charge the car with a 7.4kW charger. Up to 80%, charging is linear, after that it get slower.

Unfortunately, the i3 is not a car that can be charged quickly at home. Only the upcoming CCS DC public charging stations will provide that.

 

[MikeS]

Fortunately, in the UK the AC ‘Fast Charge’ option is standard.

Not sure where Znino lives as there is no location in the signature block. However, the EVSE simply needs a supply that is sufficient for the task - for 7.4 kw thats around 32 amps in the UK. So as long as your circuit and any associated connection can manage the load it would be fine, but if it was plugged in it would probably require some protection to stop the plug being removed on load as 32 amps would pull a large spark!

 

[znino]

Fortunately, in the UK the AC ‘Fast Charge’ option is standard.

Not sure where Znino lives as there is no location in the signature block. However, the EVSE simply needs a supply that is sufficient for the task - for 7.4 kw thats around 32 amps in the UK. So as long as your circuit and any associated connection can manage the load it would be fine, but if it was plugged in it would probably require some protection to stop the plug being removed on load as 32 amps would pull a large spark!

Sorry, I am in Canada. My 14-50 plug in the wall can supply 40A (50A circuit breaker) and 240V so supplying 32A is not an issue.

 

[znino]

You need a type 2 wallbox, the brand doesn't matter. It should be a 22kW model of which the i3 can use max 7.4kW because it only support single phase charging (3x7.4 = 22). You also need the fast charging option in your i3, otherwise it will be limited to 3.7kW for which you can use the included 230V charger. 7.4kW is 32A at 230V.

The battery has about 20kW and it takes about 3.5h to fully charge the car with a 7.4kW charger. Up to 80%, charging is linear, after that it get slower.

Unfortunately, the i3 is not a car that can be charged quickly at home. Only the upcoming CCS DC public charging stations will provide that.

I am a little confused. I thought that the DC Fast charging option (for which they are charging an additional $750 in Canada when buying the car) was only useful for public charging stations that would fast charge, not for the home charging solutions.

If I get a home charger (or portable charger) that can supply 7.4KW and plug that into my wall plug that is 240V/40A max, are you saying the car will not charge up at 7.4 KW?