Battery Warranty

[ultraturtle]

I'd appreciate any help I can get interpreting just what BMW's 8 year, 100,000 mile (certain to be higher in CARB states) USA battery warranty will cover:

• http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Cont...BMWi3withRangeExtenderPerformance.aspx?Id=707

I get that if the battery pack fails to produce any power at all during that time/mileage window, it gets replaced, but would like to know if there is any documented capacity degradation value that would also be covered under warranty.

There is an assertion on a Tesla forum (near the bottom of http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/battery-warranty-model-s) that "On the BMW i3 homepage you will find "The high-voltage battery is guaranteed for eight years or 100,000 km for 70% of the charging capacity"", but I have been unable to find the reference. I seem to recall that one of the European Nations (perhaps UK?) requires such a capacity warranty for all BEVs, so it may exist, but be limited to the few nations that have established such a requirement by law.

For reference, there apparently is no such federal requirement in the USA. As an example, despite a bunch of urban myths throwing 70% and 75% numbers about, Tesla specifically declines to provide any capacity guarantee, stating in its warranty:

• "The battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from battery usage is NOT covered under this Battery Limited Warranty" (http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/de...roadside_assistance_safety_and_warranty_0.pdf)

Trying to plan for the long term, as I do not normally operate cars for less than 10 years, and am hoping to keep this one for decades.

I'll be ordering a REx, because my wife's daily commute is 58 miles round trip (65% at 70mph) which will probably be possible to accomplish on electrical power at moderate temperatures for the first 62,000 miles or so, but not after the battery capacity degrades beyond approximately 80% of its initial capacity. I'm hoping that a 70% warranty number will equate to a 80% or better design number. Luckily, that usage will take her about 8 years, at which time (given current trends of double energy density every ~8 years and halving costs per kwh every ~10) I will likely be able to replace the battery pack with one of similar capacity at half current cost, or roughly double capacity at the same cost.

 

[LMOR]

This is from Canada:

The energy supply of the drive, as well as the supply of all other vehicle functions, is provided by a specially developed lithium ion high-voltage battery, which again sets new standards in terms of energy efficiency. The intelligent heating/cooling system of the high-voltage battery ensures that energy performance (and thus the vehicle's range) are less affected by temperature fluctuations than it normally is with batteries of this type; thus, this makes a significant contribution to both the performance and service life of the cells. An 8-year warranty or 160,000 km’s is given for the high-voltage battery.*

* For 70% of the charging capacity.

http://www.bmw.ca/ca/en/newvehicles/i/i3/2013/showroom/drive.html
(se under Lithium ion high-voltage battery)

I think that the 160 000km limit is wrong. It should be 100 000km as in the US, but the UK "translation" was 100 000miles, that may be Canada again "translated" to 160 000km. But hopefully I am wrong.

 

[ultraturtle]

I think that the 160 000km limit is wrong. It should be 100 000km as in the US, but the UK "translation" was 100 000miles, that may be Canada again "translated" to 160 000km. But hopefully I am wrong.

Actually it sounds right. The USA Warranty is 100,000 miles (it'll be higher in California and other CARB states, which may be complicating things). A 70% capacity guarantee to 100,000 miles is even better than the 100,000 km guarantee reference I posted.

Unfortunately, I cannot find any such capacity guarantee on the USA website or in any of our materials. Very good deal for you Canuks, though heh?

 

[LMOR]

BMW issues this guarantie, so it should not be any difference between the countries. Thats also why I think the 160k limit is en error, and that it will not say so on the certificate.

 

[stumbledotcom]

Unfortunately I suspect anyone who actually can answer the question would be unwilling to give it right now. The fine print probably won't be published until BMW USA starts handing titles to customers.

And the USA warranty details almost certainly will vary from state to state when it comes to environmental-impact components. California requires completely different ICE emission system warranties, for example. I can imagine the state will have something to say about the expected life and disposal plans for a component with the ecological impact of the battery pack.

 

[ultraturtle]

I'd appreciate any help I can get interpreting just what BMW's 8 year, 100,000 mile USA battery warranty will cover.

Official documents will certainly be available in the next weeks as USA owners take delivery, but for now I found the answer in a BMW i3 Service Managers Workshop handout (http://darrenortiz.com/website_pdfs/BMWi3PG.pdf):

• "Battery is replaced when State of Health (SOH) is 70% (State of Health to be determined by the Diagnosis System)"

 

[MarkN]

The Service Managers Workshop PDF also says the range extender has a 2.4 gallon gas tank (page 37). And it has a breakdown of the differences between Business and Professional navigation. The Dynamic Range Map sounds very useful but I can't see myself paying $2500 for that one feature since I don't see any other benefit in the Technology package. Thanks for posting the link Ultraturtle.

 

[I33t]

The Service Managers Workshop PDF also says the range extender has a 2.4 gallon gas tank (page 37). Thanks for posting the link Ultraturtle.

It has been made clear that the 2.4 vs 1.9 Gallon tank issue is the result of US vs Imperial Gallons. It's been reported that the fuel tank part numbers are the same for US and EU cars and the volume in Litres is consistent. Do we need to repeat the resulting confusion?

 

[mindmachine]

The Service Managers Workshop PDF also says the range extender has a 2.4 gallon gas tank (page 37). Thanks for posting the link Ultraturtle.

It has been made clear that the 2.4 vs 1.9 Gallon tank issue is the result of US vs Imperial Gallons. It's been reported that the fuel tank part numbers are the same for US and EU cars and the volume in Litres is consistent. Do we need to repeat the resulting confusion?

Hope you are correct, but the rounding is inconsistent between the two statements. The numbers should be either (rounding up) 2.4 US gal and 2.0 Imperial gallons or(rounding down) 2.3 US gal and 1.9 imperial gallons. The tank part numbers would be the same if they added a plug to take up capacity instead of making a whole new tank.

 

[I33t]

Hope you are correct, but the rounding is inconsistent between the two statements. The numbers should be either (rounding up) 2.4 US gal and 2.0 Imperial gallons or(rounding down) 2.3 US gal and 1.9 imperial gallons. The tank part numbers would be the same if they added a plug to take up capacity instead of making a whole new tank.

Well, if there is a plug, just remove it

We won't know for sure until someone runs a US spec REX out of fuel and refills it, but the confusion over US and Imperial makes the most sense and most likely explanation. The Service Manager doc doesn't nominate which unit of measure is being used (just gallons).

 

[mindmachine]

Hope you are correct, but the rounding is inconsistent between the two statements. The numbers should be either (rounding up) 2.4 US gal and 2.0 Imperial gallons or(rounding down) 2.3 US gal and 1.9 imperial gallons. The tank part numbers would be the same if they added a plug to take up capacity instead of making a whole new tank.

Well, if there is a plug, just remove it

We won't know for sure until someone runs a US spec REX out of fuel and refills it, but the confusion over US and Imperial makes the most sense and most likely explanation. The Service Manager doc doesn't nominate which unit of measure is being used (just gallons).

I tend to agree it is probably 2.4 US gallons, at least I sure hope so as I have had a Rex on order now for over a month. I am not going to change my order either way, just would like as large a tank as possible. A bigger 4 gallon tank would have been nice, but that's life.

I can't feature them redesigning the tank though for 1/2 gallon.

 

[bxb40]

Hate to burst your bubble but according to my dealer (and so far, he seems VERY knowledgeable about the i3 - impressive, really) the parts were the same when the cars were build in Germany, as mentioned before many times. However, he was told by US BMW Corporate that because US regulations/EPA testing, REX cars already shipped here are having their gas tanks replaced with new 1.9 US Gallon tanks in port, before being released to the buyers in US. This needs be done so that the REX stays as BEVx, hence getting any state discounts available to electric cars (but not to hybrids, including the Volt). I assume the software needs also modifying - a more complex task than changing a small and easily accessible gas tank... Hence even if you get a larger aftermarket tank, the display will not give the correct range on gasoline.
Time will tell what is the true story on this...

 

[mindmachine]

so here is a good question: in the US the rex can not be activated early, so you run that battery down to 5-6% or whatever point and the rex activates, lets assume the tank is full at 1.9 gal
and you continue. At what point does a low fuel warning appear? normally a cars low fule indicator comes on with 1.5 to 2.5 gal in reserve for a 8 to 25 gallon tank.

so your rex fires up and then at 35 miles later ? with maybe 35 to go ? a low fuel light comes on?

so many people will perceive the fuel tank range as 35-40 miles? (most people freak when the low fuel lamp comes on and rush to a gas station)

how useless will the rex SEEM in operation in the USA ?

I think you are over stating the situation, if you are awake all you have to do is look at the speedometer screen and it will show you how many mile you have left in the gas tank and how many remain the battery. So in the US you have 1/2 gallon less that is a difference of about 18 miles less than in the UK. I have been reading and apparently in Europe some owners have also been reporting that the Rex doesn't kick on until around 6% SOC and nobody has made a big deal out of it.

 

[RCZWhite]

In the UK when I asked about battery depreciation and warranty was answered with We don't know! :lol:

 

[Gonville]

I thought it was pretty clear in the literature? 8years and 100,000 miles?on the battery.

By the way got down to less than 6% charge first time today and didn't notice the Rex kick in. Was trying to activate it but the display said can't do that - system already engaged or some such.