Them's fight'n words for the many Tesla Model S owners on this site, as Tesla does not disclose any of the details of its battery technology, mass specific density, or volume specific density as does BMW. The "Magic" sauce Tesla applies to Panasonic's everyday consumer battery is paramount to Tesla's mystique and success on Wall Street.jadnashuanh said:FWIW, the type of batteries used in the i3 are technically superior to those in the Tesla.
What you are missing is that such a hack on an i3 would need to take place by breaking and entering each vehicle individually - an incredible waste of time for an enterprising criminal.i3Alan said:What you are missing is that the over-the-air (OTA) SW update feature of the MS is one security hole the i3 does not have, but do not discount the very numerous other holes found in these cars. Since access inside the vehicle is so easy when one is able to get to the car (for someone knowledgable, such as a competent car thief, less than a minute without breaking a window), neither car is particularly secure. If you have possession of the car, you don't need OTA update to do whatever damage you can do with OTA. Besides, OTA really is more secure than you might think, if properly implemented with well understood security protocols. It does not require military grade security to do the job very well.
How is BMW's 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty better than Tesla's 8yrs / unlimited mile warranty?jadnashuanh said:FWIW, the type of batteries used in the i3 are technically superior to those in the Tesla and is one reason why BMW's warranty on them is better.
It's actually a very old class of electric vehicle. The REx uses the same system as virtually every train locomotive in the country; a system first put into general use in the 1930's. An ICE engine drives a generator which powers an electric motor. Locomotives use a diesel engine, the REx uses a gas engie to save weight, but it's the same system design, definitely not a break through in propulsion. It's also the same approach as a Chevy Volt, just a different mix of battery and gas tank size.jadnashuanh said:The i3 always runs in electric mode...the REx never provides propulsion directly, only to charge the batteries. A hybrid can use the ICE to propel the car, so the i3 REx is not truly a hybrid, it's a new class of electric vehicle - a range assisted electric car.
BMW warranties the battery to 70% SOC. Tesla specifically declines to warranty any capacity. If a Tesla can motor only 1/10 th of a mile after 8 years, no warranty replacement would be required. The BMW i3, on the other hand, would have to motor you at least 56.7 miles of EPA range.Boatguy said:How is BMW's 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty better than Tesla's 8yrs / unlimited mile warranty?
If it's so easy to hack into an OTA update system, then why hasn't every iPhone in the world, and there are 60M - 80M of them out there, been disabled or pillaged? Surely there must be a criminal gang somewhere in the world who would find that attractive target and worthy of the hour or two effort plus a "couple more bucks" you suggest it would require.ultraturtle said:Hacking into the entire fleet of Tesla Model S's would take only an hour or two by nerds sitting at their laptops, as proven by a couple of college kids. Should an enterprising criminal wish to hire them out for more mischief, it would only take a couple more bucks to ground, (or perhaps destroy) every one of them.
Are you seriously suggesting that these Chinese students did not hack into the Tesla Model S?Boatguy said:If it's so easy to hack into an OTA update system, then why hasn't every iPhone in the world, and there are 60M - 80M of them out there, been disabled or pillaged?...
True, Tesla does not state an SOC. That said, there is nothing in the way they have treated customers this far to suggest that their intent is to defraud their customers in the manner you suggest.ultraturtle said:BMW warranties the battery to 70% SOC. Tesla specifically declines to warranty any capacity. If a Tesla can motor only 1/10 th of a mile after 8 years, no warranty replacement would be required. The BMW i3, on the other hand, would have to motor you at least 56.7 miles of EPA range.Boatguy said:How is BMW's 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty better than Tesla's 8yrs / unlimited mile warranty?
Smart thinking on both manufacturers' parts.
Telsa allows owners full access to the battery pack's capacity so that they can post staggeringly high range values, knowing that only a few idiots will actually run them to capacity and therefore prematurely degrade them.
BMW keeps it tight, knowing that owners will more frequently run the battery pack out (particularly REx owners), and imposes a 13% reserve that cannot be tampered with. EPA range suffers, but the battery pack does not - hence the 70% "state of health" warranty.
Yes. But I'm open to being educated.ultraturtle said:Are you seriously suggesting that they haven't?Boatguy said:If it's so easy to hack into an OTA update system, then why hasn't every iPhone in the world, and there are 60M - 80M of them out there, been disabled or pillaged?...
The fact that they hacked into the Tesla is well documented, but the exploit was never disclosed and it has never been suggested that it was through the OTA facility. I suspect the app API was the more likely point of entry.ultraturtle said:Are you seriously suggesting that these Chinese students did not hack into the Tesla Model S?Boatguy said:If it's so easy to hack into an OTA update system, then why hasn't every iPhone in the world, and there are 60M - 80M of them out there, been disabled or pillaged?...
I cannot find a reference to any suggestion on my part that Tesla defrauded their customers. Please forward once you find it, and I will address it.Boatguy said:True, Tesla does not state an SOC. That said, there is nothing in the way they have treated customers this far to suggest that their intent is to defraud their customers in the manner you suggest.
Again. Shrewd. Not defrauding.The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT covered under this Battery Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery.
Yeah, one does not offer a $10,000 reward for, lest be embarrassed by it only taking a few hours for a hack into an incredibly insecure system, only to be embarrassed publicly by how easy it was to do. Nevertheless, CNET revealed that it probably took place OTA via the mobile app:Boatguy said:The fact that they hacked into the Tesla is well documented, but the exploit was never disclosed and it has never been suggested that it was through the OTA facility. I suspect the app API was the more likely point of entry.
http://www.cnet.com/news/chinese-hackers-take-command-of-tesla-model-s/The security firm declined to reveal details at this point about how the hack was accomplished, although one report indicated that the hackers cracked the six-digit code for the Model S' mobile app.
The Sina Weibo post warned Tesla drivers to "be careful" when driving in the rain, to avoid becoming a "drowned rat" in case the sunroof suddenly opens.
ultraturtle said:I cannot find a reference to any suggestion on my part that Tesla defrauded their customers. Please forward once you find it, and I will address it.
My belief is if Tesla did as you suggest that that would be defrauding its customers.ultraturtle said:If a Tesla can motor only 1/10 th of a mile after 8 years, no warranty replacement would be required.
We're in violent agreement. It was probably the app API, and not the OTA firmware update mechanism that provided the exploit. And of course both BMW and Tesla have an app API. App API exploits do not implicitly demonstrate the vulnerability of the OTA protocol.ultraturtle said:Yeah, one does not offer a $10,000 reward for, lest be embarrassed by it only taking a few hours for a hack into an incredibly insecure system, only to be embarrassed publicly by how easy it was to do. Nevertheless, CNET revealed that it probably took place OTA via the mobile app:Boatguy said:The fact that they hacked into the Tesla is well documented, but the exploit was never disclosed and it has never been suggested that it was through the OTA facility. I suspect the app API was the more likely point of entry.
http://www.cnet.com/news/chinese-hackers-take-command-of-tesla-model-s/The security firm declined to reveal details at this point about how the hack was accomplished, although one report indicated that the hackers cracked the six-digit code for the Model S' mobile app.
My favorite quote of the article:
The Sina Weibo post warned Tesla drivers to "be careful" when driving in the rain, to avoid becoming a "drowned rat" in case the sunroof suddenly opens.
Boatguy said:But this is getting way to personal and adversarial and I'm not comfortable with it.
I perceived this topic as being between the OP (myself) and BMW, not the OP and other owners. My original post was my message to BMW. The whole digression into Tesla vs BMW is something that could be in some other topic but it's not part of the message I personally would like to send to BMW. You can send BMW your own message with your own thread within this topic.
Bunter said:I sent my own message to BMW in this thread and I'll repeat it. If there is a software update it should be rolled out to everyone, not just those with specific problems that mean their cars are in the dealer for inspection. Without doing that you have no configuration control and without that you really don't know where you are when people report issues.
Bill
+1elptex said:Bunter said:I sent my own message to BMW in this thread and I'll repeat it. If there is a software update it should be rolled out to everyone, not just those with specific problems that mean their cars are in the dealer for inspection. Without doing that you have no configuration control and without that you really don't know where you are when people report issues.
Bill
AKA the Android (phone OS) problem. Millions of devices running dozens of different versions of software. Without standardization in technology (hardware and software), progress is hindered.
Boatguy said:ultraturtle said:I cannot find a reference to any suggestion on my part that Tesla defrauded their customers. Please forward once you find it, and I will address it.My belief is if Tesla did as you suggest that that would be defrauding its customers.ultraturtle said:If a Tesla can motor only 1/10 th of a mile after 8 years, no warranty replacement would be required.
But this is getting way to personal and adversarial and I'm not comfortable with it.
I perceived this topic as being between the OP (myself) and BMW, not the OP and other owners. My original post was my message to BMW. The whole digression into Tesla vs BMW is something that could be in some other topic but it's not part of the message I personally would like to send to BMW. You can send BMW your own message with your own thread within this topic.
The OP contends that BMW is somehow playing catch up to a particular manufacturer (Tesla), using the example that Tesla will soon be enabling the ability for owners to start their cars using an iPhone app. I mean no disrespect to Tesla's innovation by adding capabilities to its app, just pointing out that BMW has chosen to favor security over features. It is one thing for a hacker to easily gain remote control of the car's door locks, headlights, wipers, sunroof, and horn, it appears Tesla will soon be adding the potential vulnerability to start (and hopefully not stop) the vehicle as well. My observation would be that BMW chooses to not provide such feature out of concern for security, and it has nothing to do with "catching up".Boatguy said:BMW, you are playing catch up in EVs. You need to run faster and get out in front. Case in point:
http://9to5mac.com/2014/08/20/tesla...without-keyfobs-with-v6-0-update/#more-336883
ultraturtle said:As posted previously, we can probably all agree that the Tesla Model S is superior to the BMW i3 in several ways, but in my opinion, the BMW i3 is superior to the Tesla Model S in many ways, and I respectfully disagree with the assertion that the BMW i3 is somehow drastically behind in the EV innovation race. I would hope honorable disagreement and debate (pretty much the best reason to participate in a forum in the first place) would not be mistaken for personal attacks. In my opinion, BMW and Tesla lead the rest of the industry by a significant margin in their investment and innovation, and I hope to see great things result from their collaberation.
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