What do I need to ask the electrician about charging my i3?

[Northwestern]

Just a thought, I have a licensed electrician/contractor at my house every now and then, so while he is at the house, why not ask him about what modifications I need to perform to charge the i3? A separate trip for a 5-minute "looksy" doesn't seem to benefit either party.

So the i3 can be charged w/120 volts or 240 volts. Does the 120 volt have to be on a separate circuit? If the answer is no, how much room do I have on the circuit to run things like lights/clocks/etc. without tripping the breaker? As an aside, 120v is slow but since I would buy one with a REx if I leave home with only a 75% charge that's ok.

If I use 240, I assume the contractor can just use an idle breaker on my panel and wire 12-gauge to a new socket. BMW quotes a 6-hour charging time for this type of arrangement. I'm a bit confused as to why I would need anything faster or purchase one of BMW's wall units it is selling.

Extra credit question: I'm in San Diego, CA, the most expensive place in the US for electricity. Rates are 15c-17c/kwh below about 380 kwh/mth, but rise to 26c-28c a kwh afterwards. To add insult to injury, they are suppose to go up by 11% in September. TOU (time of use) can be had for 15c/kwh between 12a-5a, but you have to install a second smart meter (I guess the first smart meter isn't smart enough). The second smart meter requires drilling into the stucco and its own circuit. Anyone have any hard data on the cost?

Thank you.

 

[TomMoloughney]

Northwestern:

"Does the 120 volt have to be on a separate circuit? If the answer is no, how much room do I have on the circuit to run things like lights/clocks/etc. without tripping the breaker?"

While it doesn't have to be on a dedicated circuit I'd definitely recommend it. The 120V charger will likely pull 12amps so personally I wouldn't want to have other loads on it particularly if it's a 15amp circuit. If it's a 20amp circuit than you have some wiggle room. Remember, the car will draw a full 12 amps for many hours, and likely do this every day so the wiring is going to be used more than ever before. It really wouldn't cost much to run a new dedicated 20 amp circuit just for the car, that way you know you won't have any issues. I have heard of quite a few stories of other EV owners having overloading issues and some even melting the outlet they used because it was old and had bad connections.

"If I use 240, I assume the contractor can just use an idle breaker on my panel and wire 12-gauge to a new socket. BMW quotes a 6-hour charging time for this type of arrangement. I'm a bit confused as to why I would need anything faster or purchase one of BMW's wall units it is selling."

You can't just plug a modern EV into a wall outlet, it will not charge. There is a communication process that the car needs to establish before it will call for energy. The charging equipment (EVSE) has to be there or the cars won't charge. However you do not need to buy BMW's branded equipment plus the car will come with a 120v portable EVSE in the US and a 230V portable EVSE for European customers. There are many other manufacturers selling higher powered EVSE's that charge at 240v for as little as $450.

I can't help you about TOU rates/issues in San Diego but I do know someone who lives there that can help you. Email me at : [email protected] and I'll put you in touch with them.

 

[Northwestern]

Thanks, Tom. I've read a lot of posts on Volt/PIP forums and "garage adaptation" costs seem to be all over the map. In addition, my last google search of "San Diego TOU EV installation costs" wasn't pretty. SDG&E isn't very forthright about costs, either; one would think they could provide some hard numbers about TOU installation costs, even if they need to use ranges.

Thanks for the lead as well, but as a low-mile user already, I'll probably just use 120 volt with the REx. If I'm a low-mile driver, why do I need a REx? Weekend warrior activities can approach the real-world range of the i3 (EPA range less a cushion) with some occasional 200-mile rt days. Additionally, the REx allows me to keep the car should I move or change my habits. Alternatively a 175-200 mile pure EV would work (I think only 4% of Tesla buyers opted for the 140-mile, 40 kwh one in favor of the 210-265 mile 60-85 kwh choices) for me and my gut feeling is this type of range is needed to jump start the industry.

I presently drive a 2007 328 wagon and really have no reason to give it up. However, with all of the tax credits and perhaps some old-fashioned cash on the hood (which there will undoubtedly be after the initial honeymoon season) I could trade my car in a weak moment. One thing I like about the i3 is the engine bay is perhaps 2 feet less than my 328. More garage space and fewer 2-pt. y turns in those small parking lots.

 

[Parker]

You can't just plug a modern EV into a wall outlet, it will not charge. There is a communication process that the car needs to establish before it will call for energy. The charging equipment (EVSE) has to be there or the cars won't charge. However you do not need to buy BMW's branded equipment plus the car will come with a 120v portable EVSE in the US and a 230V portable EVSE for European customers. There are many other manufacturers selling higher powered EVSE's that charge at 240v for as little as $450.

Some really interesting stuff here.

I assumed (wrongly - after having the Volt) that when I visited friends in an i3 (most about 80 miles away) I could just "plug in" while I was there and top the car up before I came home ... it does make the whole charging issue much more complicated than I first thought.

There's a rather confusing BMW i Twitter marketing campaign going on at the moment saying "What friends within a 100 miles radius would you visit" Implying you could charge up and come home so maybe the marketing dept don't realise this either!

Perhaps the campaign should be "What friends within a 100 miles radius WITH AN I3 CHARGER would you visit".......

 

[YashuV]

How about the tickle charging cord like Nissan Leaf has? That is located in the trunk, so you can charge up your car while at friends? Will i3 have similar cord?

 

[TomMoloughney]

You can't just plug a modern EV into a wall outlet, it will not charge. There is a communication process that the car needs to establish before it will call for energy. The charging equipment (EVSE) has to be there or the cars won't charge. However you do not need to buy BMW's branded equipment plus the car will come with a 120v portable EVSE in the US and a 230V portable EVSE for European customers. There are many other manufacturers selling higher powered EVSE's that charge at 240v for as little as $450.

Some really interesting stuff here.

I assumed (wrongly - after having the Volt) that when I visited friends in an i3 (most about 80 miles away) I could just "plug in" while I was there and top the car up before I came home ... it does make the whole charging issue much more complicated than I first thought.

There's a rather confusing BMW i Twitter marketing campaign going on at the moment saying "What friends within a 100 miles radius would you visit" Implying you could charge up and come home so maybe the marketing dept don't realise this either!

Perhaps the campaign should be "What friends within a 100 miles radius WITH AN I3 CHARGER would you visit".......

OK I wasn't 100% clear. Yes, the i3 as well as all modern EV's will come with a 120V convenience charger which has the electronics built into it so the car can communicate with it and allow the car to charge @120v.

I was replying to your quote "If I use 240, I assume the contractor can just use an idle breaker on my panel and wire 12-gauge to a new socket.". In which case you just can't plug the car into a 240V outlet, you need an EVSE(some people call them wall chargers but the actual charger is built into the car).

If you plan to charge exclusively @120V while at home you will not need to purchase anything as the car will come with a 120v convenience charger. They call it a convenience charger because most people really won't want to use it daily, just when they need to like if they visited a friends house or sleep over somewhere. For example I have only used mine about 5 times in 16 months. The car charges so slowly on 120V that it limits it's usefulness to me so I would never really charge my EV's @120V but if it works for you great.

As for the friends that are 100 miles away, I probably wouldn't have done that if I were running the marketing, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it. The i3 will be able to tell you if there are charging stations near your friends house that you could plug into and in 3 to 4 hours the car would be fully charged, or as I said you could plug it into your friends 120v outlet and sleep over!

 

[TomMoloughney]

How about the tickle charging cord like Nissan Leaf has? That is located in the trunk, so you can charge up your car while at friends? Will i3 have similar cord?

Yes, it will have a 120v convenience charger also Yashu

 

[Parker]

Yes, it will have a 120v convenience charger also Yashu

That’s a relief.

We are all 220- 240v here in Europe ........ do you think that would that speed things up using the convenience charger?

 

[TomMoloughney]

Yes, it will have a 120v convenience charger also Yashu

That’s a relief.

We are all 220- 240v here in Europe ........ do you think that would that speed things up using the convenience charger?

I'm sorry, but I'm not 100% sure how that works for you in Europe. I would assume you'll also get a convenience charger that you could plug ring into a household socket and draw approximately 12amps. That would mean waiting about 8-9 hours for a full charge. You could also buy an EVSE for your carport and cut the charging time in half while charging at 30amps.

 

[Parker]

Yes, it will have a 120v convenience charger also Yashu

That’s a relief.

We are all 220- 240v here in Europe ........ do you think that would that speed things up using the convenience charger?

I'm sorry, but I'm not 100% sure how that works for you in Europe. I would assume you'll also get a convenience charger that you could plug ring into a household socket and draw approximately 12amps. That would mean waiting about 8-9 hours for a full charge. You could also buy an EVSE for your carport and cut the charging time in half while charging at 30amps.

When I converted my house back in 1992 I specifically designed a separate 30amp circuit for the garage "for when I needed to charge my electric car' ........ talk about thinking ahead!
........mind you I never thought it would take this long to get one

 

[DHouk]

Yes, it will have a 120v convenience charger also Yashu

That’s a relief.

We are all 220- 240v here in Europe ........ do you think that would that speed things up using the convenience charger?

Based on discussions on the PriusChat board, it appears that the UK PiP comes with a 240V convenience charger which charges at the higher rate. I would assume that the i3 will be similarly equipped. You might inquire at the local Nissan dealer to confirm what they provide.

Dan

 

[Parker]

Based on discussions on the PriusChat board, it appears that the UK PiP comes with a 240V convenience charger which charges at the higher rate. I would assume that the i3 will be similarly equipped. You might inquire at the local Nissan dealer to confirm what they provide.

From the Toyota UK website....

"How long does it take to fully recharge the Prius Plug-in?
Around 1.5 hours using a standard 240V electrical supply."

Any ideas how long a PiP takes in the US ..... just so I have an idea of the uplift. (110 -> 240)

 

[Northwestern]

One thing about the 120 volt/240 v charging debate, is the 120 has about 78% efficiency vs. 90% when charged at 240. This means if you need 10 kwh to "fill" your i3, you will need 10/.9 or 11.1 kwh from your electrical source (your utility) and 12.8 kwh if done at 120. Not only are you using more electricity at 120 v to charge your i3, but for me that pushes me into the upper tier rates faster. Net net the 240 v charger will likely pay for itself in my situation assuming an electrician will have to install a dedicated 120v/240v line (I checked my electrical panel and the garage is 15A so I'll pass on the trickle charger 120v).

I understand there is a 30% credit for a charger until Dec. 31, 2013, fwiw. I can't remember if that was CA only or that is a US thing.

IMO the EV/utility industry needs to be more proactive/transparent about the realities of owning/charging an EV. You should not have to find out this stuff through the school of hard knocks.

 

[DHouk]

Any ideas how long a PiP takes in the US ..... just so I have an idea of the uplift. (110 -> 240)

The US PiP charges in 3-4 hours at 120V and 1.5-2 hours at 240V. So you should be in good shape with the convienence charger that will come with the UK i3.

Dan

 

[ChrisC]

There's a fair amount of confusion in this thread (including misleading answers) but I'm afraid I don't have time to tackle them.

But I will say this. If you are the DIY type and are comfortable installing your own EVSE, a lot of people have done just that using an existing 240V circuit. You just get an electrician to set up a 240V circuit for you, and then after he leaves you take care of the EVSE installation.

However it's important that YOU DON'T TELL THE ELECTRICIAN THAT IT'S FOR AN ELECTRIC CAR. Electricians have been known to inflate the price once they learn that you're some rich guy buying a rich man's toy. You and I know that these are actually economical cars that SAVE you money, and many of us are far from "rich", but to Eddie Electrician it may be a luxury car and he'll price accordingly. If it's a short run it might only cost you $150 for the install. My install (not counting the EVSE itself) cost $1000 but it involved buried conduit outside.

The Tesla guys have been simply getting a NEMA 14-50 outlet installed and then using it for their EVSE. In their case they actually DO plug into that receptacle. For most EVSE's (non Tesla), it's hard wired and so you'd just remove the NEMA receptacle and wire directly into the EVSE. If you get a 30 Amp EVSE then replace the 50A breaker with a 30A breaker.

Install the fattest WIRE that you can afford, though. Pulling wire is the hardest part of the whole project, so you might as well future-proof yourself with the fattest wire you can afford (or fit in the conduit). I think I had them pull 8 AWG through mine, and I'm only using 15 Amps on it right now.

 

[TomMoloughney]

"The Tesla guys have been simply getting a NEMA 14-50 outlet installed and then using it for their EVSE. In their case they actually DO plug into that receptacle. For most EVSE's (non Tesla), it's hard wired and so you'd just remove the NEMA receptacle and wire directly into the EVSE. If you get a 30 Amp EVSE then replace the 50A breaker with a 30A breaker. "

Yes, that is correct but Tesla's EVSE comes pre-wired with a plug, unlike just about all other EVSE's out there (I think Leviton now makes one with a plug). The vast majority of people do hard wire their home 240v EVSE's. If you prefer you could wire it with a plug so you could take it with you, although they are bulky and most are not really meant to be portable. Plus you would also need to find a compatible outlet to use it at. Not a bad idea if you install an outlet at a family members house though so you can charge at L2 while you visit. I did that with an AeroViroment EVSE, but ended up never using it.

 

[ChrisC]

I've been particularly aware of NEMA 14-50 locations lately because the (burdgeoning) Tesla owner group down here in Georgia has been busily ferretting out NEMA 14-50 locations (RV parks mostly) around the state to get from Atlanta to other metro areas. It'll be another year before the Supercharging network reaches us, and probably longer before any kind of standards-based DCFC (Chademo or SAE Combo) stations pop up in our state in any significant numbers -- we have yet to get even just one Chademo.

So my current thinking is that when I get my next EV early next year (e.g. the i3, perhaps) then I would get a new higher power EVSE. Then I'd take my old EVSE, a compact Clipper Creek LCS-25, and repurpose that as a portable with NEMA 14-50. The LCS-25 really is small, almost as small as the Level 1 units that come with the cars. It would only pull 25 Amps from the NEMA 14-50, but the 7 kW charger rumored for the i3 would max out at 30 Amps anyway.

I don't have to make that decision any time soon. I've got 4.8 kW charging for now and that'll continue to work well enough with the i3 until I go through the upgrade.