20" tire snow perf?

[Ruffles]

How bad are the 20" tire in the snow? I'm in Idaho so we will defiantly have snow but I certainly know how to drive in it. I don't want to have to spend the money on a second set of rims & tires. I could wait a few more weeks and get one with the 19's but I love the looks of the 20's and I'm impatient .

 

[jadnashuanh]

Unless they've changed things, the only tires available for the i3 on the 20" rims are SUMMER performance tires. Generally, summer performance tires are crappy not only when it gets cold, but also when you see snow. So, the only real choice is do you save some money and get the BMW winter tire package, or go aftermarket (TireRack may be the best bet), and spend more for a wheel you might like (but still only i3 OEM winter tires are 19", not 20"). The 19" offerings are all-seasons, and might be tolerable in the cold, snowy weather, but I look at all-season tires as a compromise all seasons.

 

[ultraturtle]

Check out the links F8L provided in this thread: http://www.mybmwi3.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1734

I don't think it wise to use the 20" summer performance tires on snow at all. If I were you, I'd wait for all season 19" wheel/tire sets, or suck it up and buy BMW's winter wheel/tire set.

 

[TomMoloughney]

Unfortunately the 20" tires are summer tires as others have pointed out, they aren't all seasons. I have talked with the top BMW product manager for North America about this and he told me to strongly advise anyone who asks me about this not to use them in the winter, they aren't made for cold temperatures much less snow and ice and the performance and traction will not be good.

You really need to get a set of 19" wheels and the winter Blizzak tires if you live in a cold area and have to drive in the snow in the winter. The 20's just aren't safe in these conditions.

 

[Ruffles]

Anyone think tire sipping will help?

 

[WoodlandHills]

Unfortunately the 20" tires are summer tires as others have pointed out, they aren't all seasons. I have talked with the top BMW product manager for North America about this and he told me to strongly advise anyone who asks me about this not to use them in the winter, they aren't made for cold temperatures much less snow and ice and the performance and traction will not be good.

You really need to get a set of 19" wheels and the winter Blizzak tires if you live in a cold area and have to drive in the snow in the winter. The 20's just aren't safe in these conditions.

I am astounded that BMW would knowingly sell a car in NA that cannot be safely used in winter as delivered. At very least, they should have a warning in big letters somewhere so that buyers know to budget for new rims and tires in order to be able to use their car in the winter without risking their lives. Seriously, if the degradation is that severe, there should be a recall!

If you live in Minnesota and buy a new i3 in January with 20's is it safe to even drive it home from the dealer?

It is not at all unusual for a car to be sold with summer performance tires with the expectation that the buyer will mount all-season tires for the winter. IMHO it IS unusual for there to be no other tires sold on the market in that size, something that BMW is 100% responsible for and 100% aware of. They were the ones that contracted that tires be made to their specifications and they were the ones who chose not to include a 20" A/S or M&S tire in that contract.

I live in Southern California so this is a moot point to me, but if I was a buyer or even worse a lessor in an area that got snow I would be furious. You sign a 3 year lease and then you find out that to safely use your car for more than 6 months a year, you have to spend another $1600 for rims and tires. I wonder if a small claims action on safety necessity would get you new 19" rims? To me, this is an obvious class action suit: all buyers who live in northern climes and who have 20s who all have to now buy new rims to safely drive their cars due to the choices that BMW has made. Being a lessor and only able to amortize the expense over three years is just insult to injury.

 

[ultraturtle]

I am astounded that BMW would knowingly sell a car in NA that cannot be safely used in winter as delivered.

Keep in mind that every trim level ("world") comes standard with 19" all season tires. The 20" summer tires are an upgrade.

 

[TomMoloughney]

As ultraturtle mentions the 20" Sport Wheel/tire combo is an option, not standard equipment. There are plenty of cars that have summer tires as optional equipment for optimal performance in warm weather.

This isn't BMW's fault/problem, it's the dealerships. At the point of sale, all equipment, standard or optional should be explained to the customer so they understand everything before buying.

My client adviser told me flat out not to use the 20's in the winter, that they wouldn't be safe. He even asked if he wanted to order me the winter wheel/tire combo then so he could include it all in the original price.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Anyone think tire sipping will help?

The problem is that summer rubber tends to get very hard during cold temperatures. Even with sipes, there is not likely enough flex in them to actually do much good. For best traction, the rubber needs to literally mold to the road surface on the microscopic level, and a good winter tire is designed to do that. And, they don't work very well when it gets hot (their rubber starts out soft and gets softer with warmer weather). The tread pattern of a summer tire usually works good for liquid water, but is also likely to clog up with snow and slush. Bottom line, the 20" performance tires/wheels are not all-season tires, and it often is like driving on bald tires when the temps drop significantly or you have any frozen water on the scene.

This is also one reason why the industry highly recommends you not keep a tire for longer than 6-years...the rubber continually gets harder with age and will affect the performance of ANY tire. Check the serial number/date code when buying tires to make sure you're not getting old ones, especially if you don't drive much, as they could already be a year or two old when you buy your 'new' tires. A real pain if you don't drive much.

I prefer the taller sidewalls on the 19" standard tires/wheels for traversing some of the crappy roads around, and that extra 1/2" can make a difference in the winter when a pothole is hidden from view.

 

[WoodlandHills]

As ultraturtle mentions the 20" Sport Wheel/tire combo is an option, not standard equipment. There are plenty of cars that have summer tires as optional equipment for optimal performance in warm weather.

This isn't BMW's fault/problem, it's the dealerships. At the point of sale, all equipment, standard or optional should be explained to the customer so they understand everything before buying.

My client adviser told me flat out not to use the 20's in the winter, that they wouldn't be safe. He even asked if he wanted to order me the winter wheel/tire combo then so he could include it all in the original price.

Tom, I understand that when one is ordering a car the 20" tires are indeed an option, but in my case I leased a car off of the dealers lot. I had no chance to configure the car as I might want it. In fact, while we were looking for cars in the BMW system, my sales rep had a devil of a time finding any car but a base trim model with the 19s which were my first choice. It was only when I was told that to get a car configured as I desired and with 19s I would have to order a build from scratch and wait months that I settled for the available vehicle and the 20s. At no time was I ever told that the car as delivered was not safe in the cold due to ties choice by BMW.

I wonder how many buyers of i3s with 20" tires were truly made aware of the safety compromises of summer tires in the winter. Would knowing that one would be forced to buy new rims in a smaller size have an impact upon the sales decision? If so, then BMW had better start putting pressure on their tire partner to expand the line to include 20" tires in their A/S line. Either that or give us all free 19" rims.

 

[WoodlandHills]

I am astounded that BMW would knowingly sell a car in NA that cannot be safely used in winter as delivered.

Keep in mind that every trim level ("world") comes standard with 19" all season tires. The 20" summer tires are an upgrade.

My dealer, i.e. The manufacturers direct American representative, configured the car themselves for sale or lease to the general public. In my case it was not an "upgrade" it was just a take or leave it standard feature: if I wanted a car off of their lot that was not a Mega, it came with 20s. If I wanted to wait for months, I could order a higher trim car with 19s.....

 

[jadnashuanh]

Just a useful bit of info...if you look at the sidewall of any tire sold in the USA, if it doesn't have the snowflake symbol prominently molded in...it's not designed for winter/cold use. The i3 sticker prominently lists the 20" tire/wheels as performance tires on the i3. SoCal is big on image and looks, and most people would probably not experience regular weather making winter tires a necessity. Certainly, that is not true elsewhere. If a performance tire qualifies for all-season (and most don't), it is usually prominently called out as such and would have that symbol. Otherwise, it is a safe assumption that it is designed for summer use. IMHO, it is up to the buyer to understand this, but it would be nice if the dealer at least mentioned it. Look for the snowflake in an outline of a mountain if you want good performance in the cold/winter weather on your tires.

To me, this is sort of like buying a nice coat, throwing it into the washing machine, and then finding out it says dry clean only...buyer beware...know what you are buying. Not all things have or are required to have a big warning sign on it.

 

[DAZ]

My understanding, summer performance tires not only don't perform well in snow and ice, but cold (how cold?) temperatures affect their grip. I had a 2011 Lexus with IS 350 with 19" aftermarket wheels and performance tires. I would never drive it in snow or ice, but was always concerned with very low temperatures. Never had a problem, but I drove conservatively.

 

[TomMoloughney]

My understanding, summer performance tires not only don't perform well in snow and ice, but cold (how cold?) temperatures affect their grip. I had a 2011 Lexus with IS 350 with 19" aftermarket wheels and performance tires. I would never drive it in snow or ice, but was always concerned with very low temperatures. Never had a problem, but I drove conservatively.

That is correct. The rubber used in summer tires is a different compound that what is used in all season or winter tires and that makes a huge difference in road holding. It's not all about the tread pattern, the rubber itself is very important.

I really urge anyone with the 20" wheels to get a set of 19 wheels and tires. I know it's not cheap, but neither is an accident caused by using improper tires. :|

 

[jadnashuanh]

The industry accepted guideline is that below 40-degrees F is the break point...summer performance tires do NOT perform well below that temperature and will gradually degrade when they get close. Most people most of the time never reach the potential of their tires and may not notice. All it takes is that one emergency stop, or trying to stop on some ice or wet in the cold and then you'll appreciate the increased performance a dedicated winter tire provides under those conditions. To perform well, the tire needs to actually conform to the pavement, and the softer rubber of an all-season and especially a winter tire can do that. That softer compound on the winter tire will much more quickly erode if used when the temperature rises, so it's a good practice to not put them on until the temperature drops, and take them off in the spring when the average temperatures rise. It is also this softer compound that can affect economy since more energy is used as the tread moves verses a harder compound. BMW and Bridgestone expended a lot of research money on the tires for the I-series to minimize the economy impacts while keeping the overall performance up. Bridgestone actually won some industry awards on its results in this last year when it came out.

Certainly, you could drive your summer tires in the cold and snow, but get into any situation where you need the grip, and you could end up wanting. In some places, it's illegal NOT to run winter tires during certain times of the year - maybe they know something!

 

[mindmachine]

I am astounded that BMW would knowingly sell a car in NA that cannot be safely used in winter as delivered.

Keep in mind that every trim level ("world") comes standard with 19" all season tires. The 20" summer tires are an upgrade.

My dealer, i.e. The manufacturers direct American representative, configured the car themselves for sale or lease to the general public. In my case it was not an "upgrade" it was just a take or leave it standard feature: if I wanted a car off of their lot that was not a Mega, it came with 20s. If I wanted to wait for months, I could order a higher trim car with 19s.....

I sympathize with you as I could have had the exact car I wanted earlier with 20 inch wheels and summer tires, but the literature on the i3 and on the web site and window sticker made it all to clear that the 20 inch wheels came with summer performance tires. So I had to order what I wanted as did not want wheels that I came with summer tires and where no winter tire for them yet existed. My dealer even said that the 20 inch wheels would necessitate me buying 19 inch wheels for the winter if I wanted winter tires.

I seriously doubt there is any case here for legal action, however; you might be able to shame your dealer into giving you a healthy discount on a set of 19's. Unfortunately like someone else said, I think it is a case of buyer beware of what you are getting and read the specs on the equipment ahead of signing the purchase order.

For me the 20 inch summer tires made me order and wait 5 month's to get the 19 inch wheels and all season tires.

 

[WoodlandHills]

Actually, if one steps back and looks at this issue, it is more a matter of tires than one of rims. If there were Mud and Snow or All Season tires available in 20" there would be nothing to talk about. Did BMW really think that they could force people to buy extra rims by deciding not to offer winter tires in 20" size with no pushback? It seems like a cynical device to boost profits by choosing not to supply a vital piece of safety equipment thus forcing customers to spend an additional $1200 or more for rims. Are we expected to believe that the famous BMw Teknik simply forgot that summer tires didn't work in the cold and it never occurred to them to offer winter tires in 20".

These are the same people who put profit over safety by inhibiting the control of the REx to game a CARB regulation in order to lower prices on the luxury cars they sell boosting the bottom line. Is it so far fetched that the same callous attitude would result in their not issuing orders for the production of 20" winter tires knowing this would cause the forced sale of thousands of sets of 19" rims? After all every i3 sold with 20" rims in a cold climate results in the sale of a full set of 19" rims from BMW and probably a set of tires too. The low prices for the set of winter tires and rims from BMW are not to give us a deal, but are instead calculated to keep that money at BMW and not Tire Rack.

 

[mindmachine]

Actually, if one steps back and looks at this issue, it is more a matter of tires than one of rims. If there were Mud and Snow or All Season tires available in 20" there would be nothing to talk about. Did BMW really think that they could force people to buy extra rims by deciding not to offer winter tires in 20" size with no pushback? It seems like a cynical device to boost profits by choosing not to supply a vital piece of safety equipment thus forcing customers to spend an additional $1200 or more for rims. Are we expected to believe that the famous BMw Teknik simply forgot that summer tires didn't work in the cold and it never occurred to them to offer winter tires in 20".

These are the same people who put profit over safety by inhibiting the control of the REx to game a CARB regulation in order to lower prices on the luxury cars they sell boosting the bottom line. Is it so far fetched that the same callous attitude would result in their not issuing orders for the production of 20" winter tires knowing this would cause the forced sale of thousands of sets of 19" rims? After all every i3 sold with 20" rims in a cold climate results in the sale of a full set of 19" rims from BMW and probably a set of tires too. The low prices for the set of winter tires and rims from BMW are not to give us a deal, but are instead calculated to keep that money at BMW and not Tire Rack.

Your scenario is possible, but knowing BMW's mentality about wheels, I would bet it is more likely that they felt that since a lot of BMW customers are into modding their cars and traditionally want extra wheel sizes. I also suspect that it is more likely that Bridgestone was just plainly not interested in investing in molds for yet a second size Blizzak tire in a low volume item especially for a 'one off vehicle size'.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Eventually, someone may make winter tires that will fit the 20" rims, but also consider, there are a lot of places where winter tires are not needed or desired. And, consider that, at least in most places, taller, wider, lower-profile winter tires are just not as reliable...a narrower tire bites through snow better, and the taller sidewall helps when the roads get funky, protecting the rims better. The 20" are listed as a performance option, and performance when the roads are crappy or it's snowing and cold out normally isn't a priority - starting, stopping, and going around corners without sliding off the road are, and a winter tire can make a world of difference when the weather turns lousy.

 

[WoodlandHills]

In the case of the i3, a new car with a unique rim and tire specification, the relationship between Bridgestone and BMW is a direct one. BMW contracted with Bridgestone to be the OEM supplier of tires in the sizes BMW wanted and to the specifications that BMW set out in the bid request. If BMW wanted a 20" winter tire there would be one. As things are now, if BMW wanted to sell more 19" rims for winter fitment they could not have devised a better scenario.... But since we all know that auto manufacturers maintain only the highest of ethical standards at all times, this simply must be a coincidence...... Right?