i3 temporary hill climbing future solution?

[dlass0123]

Personal injury lawyers might have a field day if there is a sudden decrease in speed etc. which causes an accident and obviously BMW knew about the problem (punitive damages might apply)

 

[jadnashuanh]

Philosophical question:

Which is more 'unsafe'? Ignoring the low 'fuel' on an ICE and having it stop running, power brakes gone, power steering gone, or the i3 REx that will keep going? You get similar warnings on both that this is about to happen. If you choose to ignore them, does that make the car unsafe? Being able to turn the REx on earlier at your option won't alter the fact that if you continue to keep going, you can get into the situation where it will lose performance. I find that much better than running out of fuel on an ICE. The last time that happened to me, there was a fault in the vehicle where the fuel sender was defective and later recalled to rectify the situation. Was it a safety hazard? No more than running out of fuel any other time. Was it an inconvenience? Certainly.

 

[mindmachine]

Philosophical question:

Which is more 'unsafe'? Ignoring the low 'fuel' on an ICE and having it stop running, power brakes gone, power steering gone, or the i3 REx that will keep going? You get similar warnings on both that this is about to happen. If you choose to ignore them, does that make the car unsafe? Being able to turn the REx on earlier at your option won't alter the fact that if you continue to keep going, you can get into the situation where it will lose performance. I find that much better than running out of fuel on an ICE. The last time that happened to me, there was a fault in the vehicle where the fuel sender was defective and later recalled to rectify the situation. Was it a safety hazard? No more than running out of fuel any other time. Was it an inconvenience? Certainly.[/quot

You sound like a broken record here over and over again same comments repeating all over the place, yet you climb all over me for repeating my feelings and I own a Rex and you do not!

No it is different for a number of reasons but I am not going to waste my time explaining it to you since you don't have a Rex and I believe you actually resent the Rex option and that is why you are so out spoken about it, apparently you are the type of person who can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[mindmachine]

BMW chose their own profit/greed and need for CARB ZEV credits over the functionality of the car in the US vs the Euro version.

The CARB requires BMW and others to produce a certain number of ZEV cars or face a fine. It’s hardly fair to characterize complying with government requirements as greed and profit seeking. Yes, the system allows the manufacturers to swap ZEV credits so they don’t all have to produce these cars. But paying someone else for the credits is simply paying a discounted fine to a third party.

If the federal government ever decides this is an actual safety issue the first ones they should “call to task” should be the CARB for requiring this class of BEVx car to operate this way.

Money. cost of doing business, corporate bottom line, expenses and opportunity lost that cost the corporation money in the end, same difference. I have first hand experience like I said, I reported to the president of the company, not BMW but the same type of issues, EPA ....ect.


MONEY, COST, FINES, and Corporate performance incentives to save dollars, it is all the same no matter what you want to call it. Performance bonuses for top executives!!!! Same thing, goals meet and not meet.

One thing they( BMW) will remember is damages if some lawyer gets a hold of a disaster with lost life and limb damages plus loss of value law suits.

 

[dlass0123]

you are right: the lawyers are preparing to find the horrible accident caused by a defect in the range extender, etc

 

[jadnashuanh]

The REx version of the i3 is fine, personally, the added cost, service, and functionality didn't fit my use parameters, but if it fits yours, I have no issues with it at all. But, it is what it is. I do NOT find its implementation an accident waiting to happen like some do. For most people, driving the speed limits, on most roads, they'll never experience the slowdowns. I still contend that the REx was implemented to help people overcome range anxiety, and isn't the best vehicle if you will regularly exhaust the battery capacity. Using it on occasion, knowing its limitations, and your intended use, it works perfectly and does not differ from that stated once it became available for actual sale in the USA (yes, some of the specs changed once it became available for delivery in the USA, but read the fine print on ANY car...the specs may change is in pretty much any product description literature for any car sold. The fact that it did is not fraud, or deception, and it was not hidden. Even on a flat road, you will reach that 'unsafe' condition, even if you continually refill the small REx gas tank if you drive fast and use all of the comfort features...34Hp just can't keep up when you're pressing ahead - you'll be using electricity faster than you can produce it. Using it like an ICE, where it has full capacity until the last drop of fuel just isn't the same as the i3 implementation, regardless of when you can turn it on, or it turns on by itself.

 

[mindmachine]

The REx version of the i3 is fine, personally, the added cost, service, and functionality didn't fit my use parameters, but if it fits yours, I have no issues with it at all. But, it is what it is. I do NOT find its implementation an accident waiting to happen like some do. For most people, driving the speed limits, on most roads, they'll never experience the slowdowns. I still contend that the REx was implemented to help people overcome range anxiety, and isn't the best vehicle if you will regularly exhaust the battery capacity. Using it on occasion, knowing its limitations, and your intended use, it works perfectly and does not differ from that stated once it became available for actual sale in the USA (yes, some of the specs changed once it became available for delivery in the USA, but read the fine print on ANY car...the specs may change is in pretty much any product description literature for any car sold. The fact that it did is not fraud, or deception, and it was not hidden. Even on a flat road, you will reach that 'unsafe' condition, even if you continually refill the small REx gas tank if you drive fast and use all of the comfort features...34Hp just can't keep up when you're pressing ahead - you'll be using electricity faster than you can produce it. Using it like an ICE, where it has full capacity until the last drop of fuel just isn't the same as the i3 implementation, regardless of when you can turn it on, or it turns on by itself.

You really should read some of these articles to educate yourself! Technology advances best and faster when it is not crippled intentionally!

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/

 

[KurtEndress]

Money. cost of doing business, corporate bottom line, expenses and opportunity lost that cost the corporation money in the end, same difference. I have first hand experience like I said, I reported to the president of the company, not BMW but the same type of issues, EPA ....ect.

If your point is that corporations are profit seeking soulless entities without our best interests at heart, why are you upset at BMW for caving in to the CARB and restricting the Rex? It’s the inevitable response or a corporation reacting to governmental carrot and stick.

To be clear: I bought an i3 with REx and would prefer to have control over its function. I just see CARB as being more at fault for creating the restrictive BEVx category BMW is grasping at. Even their insistence on restrictions is understandable as they want to make sure some joker doesn’t buy a BEVx just to get a desirable carpool lane sticker and then drive it on gas like a normal hybrid. I hope they can be convinced that the small gas tank is enough to discourage that. Then the REx control can be entrusted to the driver to decide when gas use is called for.

 

[mindmachine]

Money. cost of doing business, corporate bottom line, expenses and opportunity lost that cost the corporation money in the end, same difference. I have first hand experience like I said, I reported to the president of the company, not BMW but the same type of issues, EPA ....ect.

If your point is that corporations are profit seeking soulless entities without our best interests at heart, why are you upset at BMW for caving in to the CARB and restricting the Rex? It’s the inevitable response or a corporation reacting to governmental carrot and stick.

To be clear: I bought an i3 with REx and would prefer to have control over its function. I just see CARB as being more at fault for creating the restrictive BEVx category BMW is grasping at. Even their insistence on restrictions is understandable as they want to make sure some joker doesn’t buy a BEVx just to get a desirable carpool lane sticker and then drive it on gas like a normal hybrid. I hope they can be convinced that the small gas tank is enough to discourage that. Then the REx control can be entrusted to the driver to decide when gas use is called for.

Cool, maybe we agree more than I originally thought.

 

[WoodlandHills]

The bottom line is that there are two versions of this car sold. One version is able to be operated in such a manner that it minimizes the occurance of an unsafe condition while the other version cannot. The reason for this is the desire of BMW to game a regulation in order to maximize profit. When confronted by customer concern and even outrage over this situation they have chosen to implement a "fix" that does little to increase safety, but does a lot to avoid liability for the dangerous condition they have created.

How can BMW justify putting people at greater hazard and risk in NA than the rest of the world simply to make more money? This has nothing to do with the rules that CARB drew up and everything to do with the way BMW chose to play games with them. That sort of calculus on a personal or even corporate level is simply immoral.

 

[jadnashuanh]

Would the i3 in the Euro spec REx be more versatile? Yes. BTW, I've read those posts. But, is it dangerous in its current implementation as sold here, NIMHO! You need to be an intelligent, informed buyer...if it doesn't meet your needs or wants, don't buy it and then complain. BMW appears to be trying to give you some of those benefits as available elsewhere, to the USA customer while still jumping through hoops to keep CARB happy and their bottom line. The I-series are a very small portion of their overall sales and losing credits means many of the other vehicles would then need to cost more. Call that crass, profit hungry attitude if you will, but everything in life is a tradeoff. I also believe that the nav system functionality based on the scheduled trip is more reliable for the average user than someone having to remember to turn the REx on at the appropriate time. Certainly, some could figure out the best time to do that, but by no means all. If you set in a route, it's done for you at the computer generated optimum time. And, to me this is a big and, if you can't make your trip, regardless of when the REx is turned on, the computer will tell you and advise when and where you may need to stop to recharge or refuel. This only happens if the computer/nav/car knows where you intend to go. If you have the professional nav, it will also show you that graphically on the map.

 

[Chrisn]

Philosophical question:

Which is more 'unsafe'? Ignoring the low 'fuel' on an ICE and having it stop running, power brakes gone, power steering gone, or the i3 REx that will keep going? You get similar warnings on both that this is about to happen.

This is 100% false. When climbing a hill with a full tank of gas and the REx firing up you get NO WARNINGS WHATSOEVER. To a keen observer, well educated in the unique operational design of this novel car, you observe that the tiny blue bar is shrinking below the tiny white arrow and deduce that trouble is coming. BUT THE CAR DON'T THROW UP ANY WARNING WHATSOEVER-- EVEN AFTER THE SEVERE POWER CUT.

Any how many "soccer moms" can be expected to notice the arcane indications that a 25MPH crawl of shame (and potential danger) is imminent?

 

[WoodlandHills]

Would the i3 in the Euro spec REx be more versatile? Yes. BTW, I've read those posts. But, is it dangerous in its current implementation as sold here, NIMHO! Perhaps, but you cannot argue that the NA version is safer or even as safe as the EU/UK version.You need to be an intelligent, informed buyer...if it doesn't meet your needs or wants, don't buy it and then complain.what if you are the spouse, child or parent of that " intellegent, informed buyer and you are driving their i3? Doesn't their safety matter too? BMW appears to be trying to give you some of those benefits as available elsewhere, to the USA customer while still jumping through hoops to keep CARB happy and their bottom line. The I-series are a very small portion of their overall sales and losing credits means many of the other vehicles would then need to cost more. Call that crass, profit hungry attitude if you will, but everything in life is a tradeoff. Exactly! BMW has chosen to sell a car to me with compromised safety in order to lower the cost of cars it sells to other people. Drivers and passengers of all NA i3 RExs are told to take greater risks in order that Calif. 7-series buyers may save some money.I also believe that the nav system functionality based on the scheduled trip is more reliable for the average user than someone having to remember to turn the REx on at the appropriate time. Certainly, some could figure out the best time to do that, but by no means all. Really, why wouldn't people just use the 80% SOC that BMW chose for the rest of the world? If you set in a route, it's done for you at the computer generated optimum time. And, to me this is a big and, if you can't make your trip, regardless of when the REx is turned on, the computer will tell you and advise when and where you may need to stop to recharge or refuel. This only happens if the computer/nav/car knows where you intend to go. This only works if the Nav can predict your range, something that my i3 cannot seem to do at all accurately.....If you have the professional nav, it will also show you that graphically on the map.The concept of having to enter every leg of every journey into the Nav to avoid having your car suddenly slow to a crawl on the freeway is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start.

 

[I33t]

Whatever the will to blame BMW for the CARB choices made, the simple reality is that if it is a concern, just code it and continue with your life.

There was a big fuss over here about a VW Golf that got rear ended on the freeway. Huge publicity about the shocking result (death) and the culpability of VW's DSG gearbox. People were running amok blaming VW for the accident. At the enquiry it turned out the car had a normal manual gearbox and the driver was involved in a mobile phone conversation at the time of the accident. Didn't hear any apologies to VW for all the blame poured on them for this misadventure. Not saying the DSG doesn't have problems but this case had nothing to do with it.

 

[nowtta60]

I don’t think the CARB approach to REX use is right. A small tank, well - I can live with it.

Over here in UK I live 100 miles from London, just north of Birmingham. IF I were going to visit London I’d stick the REX on till I get within battery range of completing the trip, probably about Oxford, and then switch back to EV. Why? Well there’s enough exhaust pollution in London already. As someone who suffers from Asthma – but only when I have lived in large cities - I wouldn’t want to contribute to the smog and stink.

I can’t see how that model would be any difference in California. If the point of CARB is to improve air quality in cities, making it use EV mode as soon as you set off is frankly stupidity if you live outside the city.

I agree possibly with making the sat nav doing stuff more intelligently, but, it’s oh so much easier for the user to press a button. The problem even with the nav looking for nearby hills etc, say you destination is the central city, and you know you won’t have a charging option. You might want to save the battery for 30 miles to get in and 30 out. And use the REX before and after the city limits, as you need the combined power in SOC Hold mode on the highway.

I hope you are running a campaign over there highlighting the stupidity to CARB, lobbying your representatives and the media. I’m assuming the i3 keeps a track of REX Vs battery use anyway… maybe you could get some of the Europeans to help out with data from real world usage profiles to add weight to the argument. Sadly I don’t have mine yet to confirm this is possible.

Regulations are there to influence behaviour but if they are wrong they need to be changed.

 

[mindmachine]

Whatever the will to blame BMW for the CARB choices made, the simple reality is that if it is a concern, just code it and continue with your life.

That solution indeed will work after a fashion, but it is not an acceptable solution for many owners. There are several issues with fixing it yourself that could come back to bite you. These include possible warranty issues if BMW figures out you have tampered with the software registers/switches, potential liability issues, the likely need to redo it after each software/firmware update, and the cost of doing it yourself (especially for those who are not technically competent and have to hire a hacker to redo it after each update). There are more things at issue here other than just functionality, if these are not addressed this time around then the i5 will probably suffer from a bury your head in the sand attitude of code it your self and be done with it.

l am knowledgeable enough to feel comfortable with doing it myself, engineering background including computer interfaces, but not everybody who owns a Rex and wants the added functionality/safety are (I am confident of that). Even for me being able to do it myself, if it was a one off fix and good for the life of the car then maybe, but while we can't be certain about the impact of updates changing it back it is probable and as we know there are already updates in the pipeline. My car has had one update already and I haven't had it 2 month's yet.

BMW needs to be made painfully awarer that if they want to sell this technology in the US market then crippling the technology intentionally in order to sell it's other ICE cars is unacceptable to the majority of people who will buy the product. There are cost to their choice and we need to yell at them as much as necessary and wake them up to the fact that they made a greedy decision without regard to customer safety and it doesn't set well with informed clientele.

 

[I33t]

The genie is already out of the bottle.

People now know that if they are unhappy about the missing REX hold function they can fix it. Whether you can or will code it yourself is really a non issue. If people want it, and BMW does not deliver it, then they will find ways to do it. Aftermarket service providers have already offered tune changes for decades, this is no different. I can see service providers offering a discounted or free re-code after a firmware update, that's just how the commercial side of the industry works: take away the fear associated with (in this case) the coding.

Are there any cases where BMW has denied warranty because someone coded their car? There must be tens of thousands of people who have coded their BMW's, but people are still only talking about the possibility that BMW may pull warranty.

 

[ultraturtle]

Are there any cases where BMW has denied warranty because someone coded their car? There must be tens of thousands of people who have coded their BMW's, but people are still only talking about the possibility that BMW may pull warranty.

Not likely in the USA at least for enabling, disabling, or modifying software switches that BMW itself makes easily available to anyone with the time and $20 to change settings to match those that they sell in other parts of the world.

Note that the term "coding" is a monumental misnomer. No actual coding takes place to unlock capabilities such as "Charge Hold." Only access to software switches of carefully limited options set by BMW in order to protect the i3's complex systems are available.

USA purchasers of the i3 are protected by the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act of 1975 which places the burden of proof on the dealer to provide evidence that aftermarket modification caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. The fact that the i3 is designed such that this software switch on a different setting is provided to every i3 sold outside of North America would tank any dealer's case in a heartbeat.

That said, creative software switch setting changes to parameters that BMW routinely does not provide to purchasers of the i3 in any part of the world might (and probably should) be fair game for a dealer to make a case for denial of warranty coverage.

 

[I33t]

Hi ultraturtle.

Yes I get that 'coding' is not really coding, it's more like registry editing. Much less involved than remapping the engine management system to change performance characteristics.

Thanks for the info on the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, pity we don't have one of those here. Usually tiffs over warranty are settled by the dealer bullying the customer, or the customer takes the company to the small claims court. Sometimes they win

 

[mindmachine]

Are there any cases where BMW has denied warranty because someone coded their car? There must be tens of thousands of people who have coded their BMW's, but people are still only talking about the possibility that BMW may pull warranty.

Not likely in the USA at least for enabling, disabling, or modifying software switches that BMW itself makes easily available to anyone with the time and $20 to change settings to match those that they sell in other parts of the world.

Note that the term "coding" is a monumental misnomer. No actual coding takes place to unlock capabilities such as "Charge Hold." Only access to software switches of carefully limited options set by BMW in order to protect the i3's complex systems are available.

USA purchasers of the i3 are protected by the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act of 1975 which places the burden of proof on the dealer to provide evidence that aftermarket modification caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. The fact that the i3 is designed such that this software switch on a different setting is provided to every i3 sold outside of North America would tank any dealer's case in a heartbeat.

That said, creative software switch setting changes to parameters that BMW routinely does not provide to purchasers of the i3 in any part of the world might (and probably should) be fair game for a dealer to make a case for denial of warranty coverage.

I will probably go ahead then and make some changes, I don't like the seat belt chime or the warning that has to be confirmed every time either, and of course the Rex hold. May wait till after the nav/rex hold update though.